Basketball fandom or mental illness?: A thread

[Mistachill]

I've concluded this thread is stupid. We are too busy hand wringing over the implications of March to absorb and enjoy the growth/maturation of this team.

The hardest thing in basketball(or any sports) is to learn how to win games in every situation. Learning how to play with a lead, learn how to come from behind, learn how to keep up the energy when the opponent is inferior, learn how to win on the road, learn how to win when opponents takes away part of your game plan or best player etc.

Learning to win consistently usually requires players who have logged alot of game time experience and time to develop chemistry...like the FF team..pretty much all seniors with alot of tournament experience prior to 2011..

Take a look at our starting 5. All 3 sophomore from 2021 class are in the starting lineup...2 of whom have logged 22 starts between them.Our sixth man, Jamir Watkins coming off an season ending injury. Zeb Jackson, a guy who had only played 120 minutes in 2 seasons.

Pretty remarkable that we are sitting on top first in the A10...the only team with any winning road w-l right now in.conference. .

All of them returning next year with winning experience logged under their belt..

This is where the joy comes from..watching the team develop over the course of the season.

All of this is lovely. Will we make the NCAA's? I would hope our program has advanced past the "joy of development." We're not Radford.

 

[vcu2016]

I just disagree. If you know anything about the quad system and how it affects an at-large, you simply have to care about what the schools you play do in their own seasons. 25 wins doesn’t matter as much if they’re all against lower-ranked teams. I think you’re probably right that 25 wins usually gets you an at-large bid, but lots of P5 schools never crack 25 and still get a bid. If our schedules were better and the A10 wins were more impressive based on the quality of our opponents year to year, we wouldn’t feel the need to hit 25 to have a chance.

Beating a Dayton team that’s top 25 helps us get to the dance more than beating a sub 50 Dayton team, for just one example. Three years ago (as you mentioned), Dayton was literally having a dream season, and playing them (whether we won or lost), would move us up in rankings and be a quad 1 win/loss for us. It didn’t matter because we sucked that year, but if we had been on the bubble, just playing them would have helped us. That’s not true for any of our conference opponents this year. We’re all just messing it up for each other.

For instance, some people are applauding SLU losing to Fordham last night because it helps our conference standing and we’ve given up a shot at an at-large. If we hadn’t dropped to Jacksonville and won one of the others we lost, we’d be hurt by SLU’s loss. Pitt remaining highly-ranked helps us more than if they take a dip. It’s just fact. Unless we win out in noncon (which never happens because it’s not practical), you have to be concerned about other people’s performances, especially when you’re historically a bubble team BECAUSE YOU’RE A MIDMAJOR. There’s a reason people point out that the bubble teams are usually midmajors with fantastic records and P5 schools with mediocre ones. How can you see that pattern year in and year out and not see that midmajors have a disadvantage?

I think you're misunderstanding where I'm coming from. You are 100% correct with everything you said, I'm not disagreeing with you on the idea that playing better teams = more room for error and more "good win" opportunities. I get all of that and I agree with that. My point is not that, and again you are also correct regarding the notion of other mid majors needing to win a ton of games to be considered a bubble team and you have a P5 team, 5 games over .500 in the same boat. Again, you are correct. To your top 25 point, I never mentioned, nor do I think that we need to be in the top 25 to have a chance to get in. That has proven to not matter. We are usually at some point receiving votes for the top 25 but I don't remember the last time we were ranked. That's more just something that selfishly I think is awesome to see a little number next to VCU's name but that doesn't really affect us historically making the tournament.

My point once again is, stop comparing us to everyone else. We aren't a typical mid major and this is the point I'm trying to make. Your reasons are valid, for most other mid majors. Not necessarily for us though. On that NCAA tournament hot streak we went on, we were never a bubble team. We were always firmly in the field. Historically our generally average to below average conference record/schedule and the few good games in the OOC schedule (most of which we lose anyway) has proven to get us in year after year after year. My point is simple, for us, win 25 games, you're in. That's how it works. We yielded close to the same results every year arguably, 1-3 quad 1 wins, maybe 1 to 3 quad 4 losses, but 25+ wins and we make it in. The issue is, we aren't winning that many games anymore and are consistently underperforming against good and bad teams.

You're right, obviously we want OOC teams we beat or lose to to do well, obviously. But it's factually more impactful for us to win our own games then to lose to someone and have to have them play well the rest of the season. We still lost, that's the point. You just love talking about everyone else lol. Again, you're right about other mid majors. But as I've said over and over, who cares..... have we disproportionately been at a disadvantage these past 12-15 years? Were we at a disadvantage when we were dancing every year? THIS IS ABOUT US, NOT ANY OTHER SCHOOL. Clearly not. Clearly, we have been and are always putting ourselves in a good enough position to make the tournament if we handle our own business. This is why comparing us to other schools is a waste of time. We aren't like other mid majors. When will you understand that? We are at a different level. We are not at a disadvantage. We have the capability of reaching the tournament EVERY SINGLE YEAR with our roster talent and schedule. What everyone else does is just totally irrelevant to us. IF WE WIN 25+ GAMES, WE GO DANCING. This has a 0% fail rate. It's really quite simple for us honestly. I don't want to hear anything about any other school in a response because it literally historically does not matter. Our schedules are always relatively similar (relatively) in terms of number of quality opponents and our conference is (relatively) the same every year. Nothing has changed THAT much this season except for our own results.

 

[vcu2016]

If we did what you’re saying (won three of the six games we’ve lost), yes of course, we’d have a record of 20-3? My point is that a school shouldn’t have a record of 20-3 and just be on the bubble. Because we’re a midmajor, a 20-3 record is bubble-worthy while P5 schools are making it in with barely a .500 sometime. SOS matters. We can’t expect coaches and teams to be super humans and not drop games naturally now and then, especially when our best player was out for the three most important ones.

If we were 20-3 right now, we would not be on the bubble. We'd be comfortably in. We were on the bubble last year and we won 22 games TOTAL.

 

[veteran]

It’s another indictment on rhoades. He can’t win the games that matter

As we used to say in United States Army, that’s unadulterated bullpoop!

 

[RamLover]

I think you're misunderstanding where I'm coming from. You are 100% correct with everything you said, I'm not disagreeing with you on the idea that playing better teams = more room for error and more "good win" opportunities. I get all of that and I agree with that. My point is not that, and again you are also correct regarding the notion of other mid majors needing to win a ton of games to be considered a bubble team and you have a P5 team, 5 games over .500 in the same boat. Again, you are correct. To your top 25 point, I never mentioned, nor do I think that we need to be in the top 25 to have a chance to get in. That has proven to not matter. We are usually at some point receiving votes for the top 25 but I don't remember the last time we were ranked. That's more just something that selfishly I think is awesome to see a little number next to VCU's name but that doesn't really affect us historically making the tournament.

My point once again is, stop comparing us to everyone else. We aren't a typical mid major and this is the point I'm trying to make. Your reasons are valid, for most other mid majors. Not necessarily for us though. On that NCAA tournament hot streak we went on, we were never a bubble team. We were always firmly in the field. Historically our generally average to below average conference record/schedule and the few good games in the OOC schedule (most of which we lose anyway) has proven to get us in year after year after year. My point is simple, for us, win 25 games, you're in. That's how it works. We yielded close to the same results every year arguably, 1-3 quad 1 wins, maybe 1 to 3 quad 4 losses, but 25+ wins and we make it in. The issue is, we aren't winning that many games anymore and are consistently underperforming against good and bad teams.

You're right, obviously we want OOC teams we beat or lose to to do well, obviously. But it's factually more impactful for us to win our own games then to lose to someone and have to have them play well the rest of the season. We still lost, that's the point. You just love talking about everyone else lol. Again, you're right about other mid majors. But as I've said over and over, who cares..... have we disproportionately been at a disadvantage these past 12-15 years? Were we at a disadvantage when we were dancing every year? THIS IS ABOUT US, NOT ANY OTHER SCHOOL. Clearly not. Clearly, we have been and are always putting ourselves in a good enough position to make the tournament if we handle our own business. This is why comparing us to other schools is a waste of time. We aren't like other mid majors. When will you understand that? We are at a different level. We are not at a disadvantage. We have the capability of reaching the tournament EVERY SINGLE YEAR with our roster talent and schedule. What everyone else does is just totally irrelevant to us. IF WE WIN 25+ GAMES, WE GO DANCING. This has a 0% fail rate. It's really quite simple for us honestly. I don't want to hear anything about any other school in a response because it literally historically does not matter. Our schedules are always relatively similar (relatively) in terms of number of quality opponents and our conference is (relatively) the same every year. Nothing has changed THAT much this season except for our own results.

It all goes back to why I said what worked for us in the past might not work for us now. You’ve used the term “what has worked for us historically.” Historically, during our tournament streak, the NET didn’t exist.

 

[RamLover]

If we were 20-3 right now, we would not be on the bubble. We'd be comfortably in. We were on the bubble last year and we won 22 games TOTAL.

I guess it depends on which teams we won against. If we won against Jacksonville, Bona, and Temple, I still think we’d be on the bubble right now at 20-3. If we won ASU and Memphis, then yes we’d be firmly in because who you beat and what those teams do matters for EVERYONE.

 

[vcu2016]

It all goes back to why I said what worked for us in the past might not work for us now. You’ve used the term “what has worked for us historically.” Historically, during our tournament streak, the NET didn’t exist.

And as I said friend, good teams are still good, bad teams are still bad, and you have some surprises every season. That has been true since the conception of college basketball and will continue to hold true forever. Whether that is represented as the NET, AP Poll, RPI, BPI, Ken Pom, Nitty Gritty Report, ELO.... makes no difference. Look at the top 25, looks pretty similar to me to any other year. Nothing has changed all that much honestly. All I know is, 25 wins, we are in. Plain and simple.

 

[RamLover]

And as I said friend, good teams are still good, bad teams are still bad, and you have some surprises every season. That has been true since the conception of college basketball and will continue to hold true forever. Whether that is represented as the NET, AP Poll, RPI, BPI, Ken Pom, Nitty Gritty Report, ELO.... makes no difference. Look at the top 25, looks pretty similar to me to any other year. Nothing has changed all that much honestly. All I know is, 25 wins, we are in. Plain and simple.

There’s nothing simple about getting 25+ wins every single season. It’s a really hefty goal. Amazing if we get it, but not a reason to fire a coach if it doesn’t happen.

 

[vcu2016]

There’s nothing simple about getting 25+ wins every single season. It’s a really hefty goal. Amazing if we get it, but not a reason to fire a coach if it doesn’t happen.

It hasn't been hefty for us. It's been pretty status quo up until MR took over. I also have not directly said I want to fire MR right now. I think that there should be a serious discussion about how to move forward though because something hasn't been right. We have dipped as a program. You're a big fact guy, those are facts. Another fact is, we win less than 40% of all "big games" we play in under MR. We have declined significantly as a program in the past 5 1/2 years and that is in direct correlation with the hiring of MR.

If you deem a successful season as no post season or the NIT, then you shouldn't be rooting for VCU because that's not what this program strives for or is in the past 12-15 years. There is a standard here, it's not being met. 5 1/2 years is plenty enough time to see. All I'm saying is, it's worth the conversation. The majority of posters on here agree with that sentiment.

 

[AHEF]

Ex-LSU coach Will Wade sounds off on potential return, transfer portal, current state of college basketball

...

247sports.com

 

[RamLover]

I think two of MR’s seasons were below my personal standard.

It hasn't been hefty for us. It's been pretty status quo up until MR took over. I also have not directly said I want to fire MR right now. I think that there should be a serious discussion about how to move forward though because something hasn't been right. We have dipped as a program. You're a big fact guy, those are facts. Another fact is, we win less than 40% of all "big games" we play in under MR. We have declined significantly as a program in the past 5 1/2 years and that is in direct correlation with the hiring of MR.

If you deem a successful season as no post season or the NIT, then you shouldn't be rooting for VCU because that's not what this program strives for or is in the past 12-15 years. There is a standard here, it's not being met. 5 1/2 years is plenty enough time to see. All I'm saying is, it's worth the conversation. The majority of posters on here agree with that sentiment.

We just disagree. I said I consider a successful season finishing fourth or higher in our league and/or winning 21+ games. That usually will always put us in the NIT unless the conference is just flat-out horrible.

I just don’t know why the conversation is happening as we’re first in our conference and lost three games with our best player out.

You can disagree with me, but the landscape of college basketball has changed in my opinion. I’m just not narrowly-focused on things that happened in the past and comparing it to today.

I also think a lot of you guys would have a totally different perspective if the whole team hadn’t gotten Covid and played their tournament game in ‘21. It wouldn’t seem quite as bad.

Anyway, I root for VCU because I’m from Richmond and went to school there. I’ll root for them whether they’re good or bad, even if they dip below my personal standard. It’s so weird you’d say I shouldn’t root for them. I feel like supporting MR and trusting that he knows more than anyone on this board will give us more success in the long run. I’m just more graceful and understanding when we don’t hit the mark. Y’all act like we should be a magical unicorn program for the rest of our days and like no coach is good enough. It’s just weird is all I’m saying. Programs go up and down. We got very lucky for a really long time.

For instance, WW and his at-large one year was saved by a collective .8 seconds of calls that lots of refs wouldn’t make in late game play. The fanbase just has some standards based on a very improbable run.

 

[vcu2016]

I think two of MR’s seasons were below my personal standard.

We just disagree. I said I consider a successful season finishing fourth or higher in our league and/or winning 21+ games. That usually will always put us in the NIT unless the conference is just flat-out horrible.

I just don’t know why the conversation is happening as we’re first in our conference and lost three games with our best player out.

You can disagree with me, but the landscape of college basketball has changed in my opinion. I’m just not narrowly-focused on things that happened in the past and comparing it to today.

I also think a lot of you guys would have a totally different perspective if the whole team hadn’t gotten Covid and played their tournament game in ‘21. It wouldn’t seem quite as bad.

Anyway, I root for VCU because I’m from Richmond and went to school there. I’ll root for them whether they’re good or bad, even if they dip below my personal standard. It’s so weird you’d say I shouldn’t root for them. I feel like supporting MR and trusting that he knows more than anyone on this board will give us more success in the long run. I’m just more graceful and understanding when we don’t hit the mark. Y’all act like we should be a magical unicorn program for the rest of our days and like no coach is good enough. It’s just weird is all I’m saying. Programs go up and down. We got very lucky for a really long time.

For instance, WW and his at-large one year was saved by a collective .8 seconds of calls that lots of refs wouldn’t make in late game play. The fanbase just has some standards based on a very improbable run.

There is nothing "lucky" about making the tournament 10 out of 13 years.

The same teams are in the top 25 like they are every year, you can say whatever you want, but we will all probably have similar teams in our elite 8 and final 4 like every other year. We all pretty much know the teams that are perennially good and that hasn't changed. There has been no noticeable change since the conception of the NIL to college basketball as compared to years past. Again, the same teams are at the top, no change there.

Again, we have set the bar high over these past 12-15 years, it's on our staff, players, and AD to keep it there. We have shown the ability to sustain a high level of success, you can't use our mid-major status as a crutch now when all of the sudden as soon as MR gets in (quite the coincidence) we are no longer at that standard. Nothing has changed... truthfully, nothing has REALLY changed in division I basketball in aggregate except for our own results. I'll say it again, I don't need whatever current metric they use to tell me that the same good teams are still just as good, the same bad teams are just as bad, and the middle is in flux. Welcome to any year ever in college basketball.

 

[umwram]

Ex-LSU coach Will Wade sounds off on potential return, transfer portal, current state of college basketball

...

247sports.com

The comment on that article: "Wade makes a few good points. I still wouldn't want him coaching my team."

 

[RamLover]

There is nothing "lucky" about making the tournament 10 out of 13 years.

The same teams are in the top 25 like they are every year, you can say whatever you want, but we will all probably have similar teams in our elite 8 and final 4 like every other year. We all pretty much know the teams that are perennially good and that hasn't changed. There has been no noticeable change since the conception of the NIL to college basketball as compared to years past. Again, the same teams are at the top, no change there.

Again, we have set the bar high over these past 12-15 years, it's on our staff, players, and AD to keep it there. We have shown the ability to sustain a high level of success, you can't use our mid-major status as a crutch now when all of the sudden as soon as MR gets in (quite the coincidence) we are no longer at that standard. Nothing has changed... truthfully, nothing has REALLY changed in division I basketball in aggregate except for our own results. I'll say it again, I don't need whatever current metric they use to tell me that the same good teams are still just as good, the same bad teams are just as bad, and the middle is in flux. Welcome to any year ever in college basketball.

Your tune might change if you were a 21-2 Charleston team with a NET rank of 60 when the selection committee uses the NET for selection and seeding. You can say things aren’t different all you want.

 

[mike7842]

It hasn't been hefty for us. It's been pretty status quo up until MR took over. I also have not directly said I want to fire MR right now. I think that there should be a serious discussion about how to move forward though because something hasn't been right. We have dipped as a program. You're a big fact guy, those are facts. Another fact is, we win less than 40% of all "big games" we play in under MR. We have declined significantly as a program in the past 5 1/2 years and that is in direct correlation with the hiring of MR.

If you deem a successful season as no post season or the NIT, then you shouldn't be rooting for VCU because that's not what this program strives for or is in the past 12-15 years. There is a standard here, it's not being met. 5 1/2 years is plenty enough time to see. All I'm saying is, it's worth the conversation. The majority of posters on here agree with that sentiment.

Ease off these long messages