Confederate Monuments, remove or stay

Ramlove81

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So, we don't get caught up in several pages of discussion on basketball related threads let's discuss this here. My take: I grew up a son of the south. I loved to listen to my Uncle Gene, the family's resident historian of the Civil War talk about the battles, the war strategy, the personalities of the generals on both sides. I also heard the longing for the war to have had a different result. If general so and so had done this as Lee ordered him to at X battle the whole war could have turned out differently... Lee's battle strategy was never questioned, nor his character. Of course the war was never about slavery, right?
Then I grew up. I studied it myself as a history major at VCU and beyond. Low and behold the war was absolutely about slavery. If you think it was states' rights, well what right was it? It was the right to own other human beings, force them into labor for you and control every aspect of their lives. And it was my people, white, who owned black Africans and their descendants. The right side won the war. Yes I hear my uncle rolling over in his grave over me saying that, but it is true. That it took one of the most horrible wars in human history for the United States of America, whose declaration of independence in includes the words, "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inallianbal
right. that among these are life, LIBERTY and the pursuit of happiness." (my bold print), to end the institution of slavery is a sad commentary. That after this horrible war making real peace between the sides was close to impossible is to be expected. The south was devastated by the war on a number of fronts, infrastructure was gone, economy (based largely on slavery) was virtually non-existent, the enemy in the war now controlled the institutions of governance... the land was under occupation. When the south finally shook off the holds of reconstruction there was a backlash. It was at this time that "Confederate Monuments" began to be built. I put that in quotation marks to differentiate between monuments and memorials. No one would begrudge anyone the right to memorialize their dead. Monuments however are a celebration of the cause. And the cause was maintaining the institution of the slavery of people of color. Period. So, these monuments are a constant reminder that people, like my uncle and many more in my family, wish that the war had turned out differently, which means that slavery would have continued. Oh, we southerners don't say it that way. It's about heritage. What heritage? The heritage of one group of human beings giving themselves the right to own other human beings as property. That's the heritage we are talking about, we can't get around that. I'm white, southern, male, Virginian through and through (family dating back at least to the 1690's in eastern Henrico County) and it hurts to say that, but it's true. When you ride down Rt. 5 southeast of Richmond and see the beautiful plantations along the James, they were all run with slave labor. Williamsburg, Monticello, and many other of the historical monuments of our founding fathers and mothers located in this state, run by slave labor. It is all around us. We either own it or deny it. We've denied it (I know I have and I recognize it in others too) for too long, those monuments are a symbol (to us white southerners) of that denial. To our sisters and brothers of color they are a symbol of both oppression in the past and ongoing oppression in the present. If we want this to be a place where there is hope for a future that doesn't include that oppression the monuments have to go! R. E. Lee was a brilliant military strategist but he was not a hero. Neither was Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis...
OK I have gone on too long already, I actually have work to do. I mean no animosity toward anyone here. This for me is as much self examination as anything. Be blessed everyone.
 

VCU_Redskins

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The only group whose majority thinks monuments should be removed are white liberals, according to a few surveys.

The majority of black people don't care, the majority of total Americans either have no opinion or think they shouldn't be removed.

This is all just a distraction.

Literally the only reason to remove this is for one group of people to go "Ha we win" because it will literally solve ZERO problems while creating more.

Will it magically end racism? Nope
Will it be a giant waste of our tax dollars? Yep
Will it cause racial tension and possible riots? Already there

And you think it'll end at the statues? Lol nope. Streets, schools, buildings... And hey Washington is next. Tear down the Washington monument. And then Constitution was written by slave owners, why should we even obey that anymore?

This isn't about race or slavery it's a political power move. People aren't triggered by statues of old dead men.
 

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Bridgewater83

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The only group whose majority thinks monuments should be removed are white liberals, according to a few surveys.

The majority of black people don't care, the majority of total Americans either have no opinion or think they shouldn't be removed.

This is all just a distraction.

Literally the only reason to remove this is for one group of people to go "Ha we win" because it will literally solve ZERO problems while creating more.

Will it magically end racism? Nope
Will it be a giant waste of our tax dollars? Yep
Will it cause racial tension and possible riots? Already there

And you think it'll end at the statues? Lol nope. Streets, schools, buildings... And hey Washington is next. Tear down the Washington monument. And then Constitution was written by slave owners, why should we even obey that anymore?

This isn't about race or slavery it's a political power move. People aren't triggered by statues of old dead men.
Very well said. This is about much more than confederate statues. This is only the beginning for these white liberal anarchists.
 

AlienAiden

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Very well said. This is about much more than confederate statues. This is only the beginning for these white liberal anarchists.
You made a horrible veiled statement in the other thread and now this. Charlottesville passed a ordinance to rename Lee park and remove the statue. This caused racists carrying Nazi flags to converge on the city. But for some reason you want to make it about liberals. Are you Tiny Trump or something?
 

Ramlove81

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Will it magically end racism? Nope
Nothing will "magically end racism, nothing "magically" started. It will take many steps by individuals and society. This is one of them.
Will it be a giant waste of our tax dollars? Yep
Don't argue that we have to weigh the good anything will do against the cost. We may not be there yet.
Will it cause racial tension and possible riots? Already there
Is removing the monuments the cause of riots? Really? It is the rallying point for white racism that sees the possibility of its privilege slipping away. The Neo-Nazis in C-ville were a more extreme expression of this. I felt conflict within myself. I'm white, from the south, privileged, part of me wants to stay that way. Another part of me knows our society will be better for everybody including myself when that privilege is either gone or shared by everyone.
 

VCU_Redskins

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Nothing will "magically end racism, nothing "magically" started. It will take many steps by individuals and society. This is one of them.
How will removing US veteran memorials help combat racism?
Don't argue that we have to weigh the good anything will do against the cost. We may not be there yet.
Why not? Why should my/our money go towards political virtue signalling when our city schools are literally closing and falling apart? When our roads and broken and infrastructure is crap? When we don't even have a city auditor?

Is it because those topics aren't sexy enough to be talked about in the media? Are they less important? Or maybe because imagining the white Boogeyman in our country being the root of our problems is a lot easier than looking at our actual leaders to take responsibility for our failing city.

Or maybe because there's an underlying narrative going on in America, throughout every major news outlet, that is designed to equate everything conservative or white or Republican with white supremacist, Nazi, racist, bigot, KKK labels until we all start believing they're the same things.

I would be more afraid to walk around RVA wearing a MAGA hat, supporting our president, than I would standing on Monument Ave burning an American flag.

Is removing the monuments the cause of riots? Really? It is the rallying point for white racism that sees the possibility of its privilege slipping away. The Neo-Nazis in C-ville were a more extreme expression of this. I felt conflict within myself. I'm white, from the south, privileged, part of me wants to stay that way. Another part of me knows our society will be better for everybody including myself when that privilege is either gone or shared by everyone.

All 50 KKK members and 200 neo Nazis still alive are doing the same crap as always, which is yelling at the clouds and LARPing in their parents basements pretending they're Edward Norton from American History X.

I'd be more worried about marches on free speech, BLM riots and destruction of property, masked and armed "antifascists" openly silencing others opinions with violence, alt left assassination attempts on Republicans at a baseball game, murders of cops, and the celebration of violently attacking people who support our president, than I would of fat rednecks waving a flag around or our beautiful monuments.

Weird how all this started to ramp when the noose is tightening around Hillary for her pay to play and email investigation, the investigation of Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Awan brothers gets underway, the Feds start looking into Obama's slush fund, the email "hacks" are proven to actually be leaks from inside the DNC, and the #Russiagate narrative completely falls apart.

BUT, I'm willing to accept it's all coincidence...and really it doesn't matter the motives. What matters is our city. And our city has had completely inept leaders that haven't dealt with real problems but get to have some cool stuff on their resumes (see: Redskins park, UCI bike race, Stone Brewery, etc) when they inevitably move on to another city and leave us with the bill.
 

duncanlamb

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It can happen to any historical figure....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-removal-mahatma-gandhi-statue-african-heroes

'Racist' Gandhi statue banished from Ghana university campus

"
The petition states “it is better to stand up for our dignity than to kowtow to the wishes of a burgeoning Eurasian super power”, and quotes passages written by Gandhi which say Indians are “infinitely superior” to black Africans.

More than 1,000 people signed the petition, which claimed that not only was Gandhi racist towards black South Africans when he lived in South Africa as a young man, but that he campaigned for the maintenance of India’s caste system, an ancient social hierarchy that still defines the status in that country of hundreds of millions of people.

Ghana’s foreign ministry said it had followed the controversy with “deep concern” and wanted to relocate the statue.

“The government would therefore want to relocate the statue from the University of Ghana to ensure its safety and to avoid the controversy.” it said. “While acknowledging that, human as he was, Mahatma Gandhi may have had his flaws, we must remember that people evolve.”
 

david coxxx

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How will removing US veteran memorials help combat racism?

Why not? Why should my/our money go towards political virtue signalling when our city schools are literally closing and falling apart? When our roads and broken and infrastructure is crap? When we don't even have a city auditor?

Is it because those topics aren't sexy enough to be talked about in the media? Are they less important? Or maybe because imagining the white Boogeyman in our country being the root of our problems is a lot easier than looking at our actual leaders to take responsibility for our failing city.

Or maybe because there's an underlying narrative going on in America, throughout every major news outlet, that is designed to equate everything conservative or white or Republican with white supremacist, Nazi, racist, bigot, KKK labels until we all start believing they're the same things.

I would be more afraid to walk around RVA wearing a MAGA hat, supporting our president, than I would standing on Monument Ave burning an American flag.



All 50 KKK members and 200 neo Nazis still alive are doing the same crap as always, which is yelling at the clouds and LARPing in their parents basements pretending they're Edward Norton from American History X.

I'd be more worried about marches on free speech, BLM riots and destruction of property, masked and armed "antifascists" openly silencing others opinions with violence, alt left assassination attempts on Republicans at a baseball game, murders of cops, and the celebration of violently attacking people who support our president, than I would of fat rednecks waving a flag around or our beautiful monuments.

Weird how all this started to ramp when the noose is tightening around Hillary for her pay to play and email investigation, the investigation of Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Awan brothers gets underway, the Feds start looking into Obama's slush fund, the email "hacks" are proven to actually be leaks from inside the DNC, and the #Russiagate narrative completely falls apart.

BUT, I'm willing to accept it's all coincidence...and really it doesn't matter the motives. What matters is our city. And our city has had completely inept leaders that haven't dealt with real problems but get to have some cool stuff on their resumes (see: Redskins park, UCI bike race, Stone Brewery, etc) when they inevitably move on to another city and leave us with the bill.
but what about pizzagate
 

VCU_Redskins

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Wow, this thread sucks
No offense, and you know I like you (I hope), but this is the type of comment that will get dozens of "likes" while valid concerns are never addressed, and is representative of the problems going on in this country.

This doesn't add anything to the conversation.

I admit I'm making a stretch, sorry, but it reminds me of similar snarky quips by popular celebrities and comedians that will berate and insult others opinions while never coming up with any counter points or solutions of their own.

Again, sorry to strawman you like that, I know it wasn't your intention.
 

AlienAiden

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No offense, and you know I like you (I hope), but this is the type of comment that will get dozens of "likes" while valid concerns are never addressed, and is representative of the problems going on in this country.

This doesn't add anything to the conversation.

I admit I'm making a stretch, sorry, but it reminds me of similar snarky quips by popular celebrities and comedians that will berate and insult others opinions while never coming up with any counter points or solutions of their own.

Again, sorry to strawman you like that, I know it wasn't your intention.
I do not think your concerns are valid.
 

VCU_Redskins

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but what about pizzagate
See. Same thing here. Insulting quip implying I'm a conspiracy theorist.

Prove me wrong David.

I'm open for debate. I'm 33 and have voted Democrat my entire life and did NOT vote for Trump.

And yet here I am defending him and Republicans, because I was open minded and changed my position after being disillusioned with the state of the DNC and their yellow journalism MSM supporters.
 

VCU_Redskins

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I do not think your concerns are valid.
Which part? That our city is in shambles and that I think there are more important things to worry about than statues?

The latter is definitely just my opinion, fair enough, but do you agree with the recent happenings in our local government?
 

david coxxx

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See. Same thing here. Insulting quip implying I'm a conspiracy theorist.

Prove me wrong David.

I'm open for debate. I'm 33 and have voted Democrat my entire life and did NOT vote for Trump.

And yet here I am defending him and Republicans, because I was open minded and changed my position after being disillusioned with the state of the DNC and their yellow journalism MSM supporters.
I'm just poking fun. Honestly I've spent a lot of time the past few months trying to understand Trump supporters and more recently the people who can't stomach the idea of statues coming down (Side note - we'll take them down for free, it won't cost a thing). One thing I think I've just kind of understood is that plenty of the people on the opposite side of will never believe me or people on my side.

Plenty of us believe that statues erected in the Jim Crow and Civil Rights Movement are symbols of oppression. They went up in those eras with a purpose. They didn't go up during reconstruction. Is it honestly hard for you to accept that I truly believe that, and want to see them taken down because of the reason they went up? I don't know a single POC who believes taking statues down will help end racism at all, but that doesn't mean that we can't see the figures on the statues and the reason they went up as racist/racially motivated.
 
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