NIL impact on the program question

Ramdog

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She can't wear school gear doing puma adds...and can't wear puma playing for school
 
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IDK how much it ACTUALLY has to do with it, but the rumours made me wonder what VCU was doing with it.


Edited to add:
I am really looking forward to Mooney pitching a kid on the UR NIL opportunities: "Sure you can go to VCU and endorse pizza places, but here you can do old folks home, pre need burial services, and we have the red sweater vest endorsements on lock down".
Funny, and I get it. BUT, trust me if the Old Folks Home is paying 10k vs the Pizza Place $3k. which would you pick? It is not going to matter "what" the endorsement is JUST what it will Pay!
 

Ramaholic

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Funny, and I get it. BUT, trust me if the Old Folks Home is paying 10k vs the Pizza Place $3k. which would you pick? It is not going to matter "what" the endorsement is JUST what it will Pay!
Exactly. Coming out of the gates, I think NIL will hurt VCU in a couple of ways.
First, VCU Athletics has diminishing revenues recently in nearly every category (RAF donations, corporate donors, ticket sales,NCAA shares...) NIL dollars the athletes could be taking dollars that would otherwise be spent directly with the Athletic Dept. Second, as a younger university, we just dont have the high money corporate connections that can get a $10k old age home deal. Even a $3k Pizza deal is going to be difficult to raise for a mid major MBB athlete.
I dont think this is exclusively a VCU problem. It will affect over 80% of the mid major programs. The winners will be the UR, Davidson, Witchita State (for as long as the Koch brothers are alive anyway) and other schools that have alums with money to burn (Ivy league, Colgate...) and a sense of pride in there athletic teams. In the end, I dont think a high dollar ($5 or $10k) NIL deal with nearly any mid major athlete is ever going have a great ROI for the entity paying. maybe a few hundred or $1000 for a grand opening appearance, or a demo car from a local dealer, but those deals wont really move the needle. It will be people who really dont care about $10k here or $20K there for many years, that will be funding these deals. And sadly (or gladly), most VCU folks dont fit this mold.
Over the long term, VCU will catch up as we always seem to figure things out. But initially, I dont think we are in a great position.
 

RowdyPkunk

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Exactly. Coming out of the gates, I think NIL will hurt VCU in a couple of ways.
First, VCU Athletics has diminishing revenues recently in nearly every category (RAF donations, corporate donors, ticket sales,NCAA shares...) NIL dollars the athletes could be taking dollars that would otherwise be spent directly with the Athletic Dept. Second, as a younger university, we just dont have the high money corporate connections that can get a $10k old age home deal. Even a $3k Pizza deal is going to be difficult to raise for a mid major MBB athlete.
I dont think this is exclusively a VCU problem. It will affect over 80% of the mid major programs. The winners will be the UR, Davidson, Witchita State (for as long as the Koch brothers are alive anyway) and other schools that have alums with money to burn (Ivy league, Colgate...) and a sense of pride in there athletic teams. In the end, I dont think a high dollar ($5 or $10k) NIL deal with nearly any mid major athlete is ever going have a great ROI for the entity paying. maybe a few hundred or $1000 for a grand opening appearance, or a demo car from a local dealer, but those deals wont really move the needle. It will be people who really dont care about $10k here or $20K there for many years, that will be funding these deals. And sadly (or gladly), most VCU folks dont fit this mold.
Over the long term, VCU will catch up as we always seem to figure things out. But initially, I dont think we are in a great position.

I'm gonna play devils advocate to this for a quick second. Will this really hurt us? Or will it more so help us get back to the way things were when VCU was thriving? Why do I say this?

Well lets take a look.... look at some of our most successful years & the make up of our team. Our Final 4 team.... how many of those players coming outta HS were Top 100 recruits? How many of them were 4-5 star recruits? Heck some/most of em might not even had been 2-3 stars.

Now sure you can absolutely say we got lucky because of the field expanding to 68.... and you can argue we shouldn't have been in there still... but the fact of the matter is... we got in... and we were doubted in every game pretty much & we made it to the Final 4. We made it because of coaching, team chemistry, and our team was pissed off because of all the "bulletin board material" the media was putting out there.

Now look at some of our best players since the Final Four Group.... Briante Weber, Treveon Graham, Bones Hyland just to name a few.... you could tell by the way they played they wanted to be here. Neither Briante nor Treveon were Top 100 recruits I don't think.... but look at how successful they were & overall how successful we were with them. Bones obviously was a Top 100 recruit & he certainly played like it.... and now hes in the pros after 2 years of college.... but there was never a doubt... he wanted to be here.

You look at this NIL stuff.... you're gonna get players going to schools that they may not initially have considered because they care more about the money than anything else.

Just as an example.... lets say a recruit has offers to play basketball at both VCU & Old Dominion & its their only 2 offers.... Neither of which is close to home, nor does the recruit have any connections to the schools, so that's not a factor.

Old Dominion somehow someway says we'll offer you $150,000 in NIL money to come here..... VCU says we'll offer you $65,000. I would almost guarantee you that kid is going to take the Old Dominion offer..... and not because he wants to go to Old Dominion more to play basketball. Where as before this NIL stuff, the recruit would probably choose us because overall we have the more successful basketball program, we've sent a players to the NBA a lot more recently than Old Dominion has, and overall our atmosphere at games is still better than their's.

We want players who want to be here. We want those guys that play with a chip on their shoulder. We want those guys that aren't gonna butt hurt when things don't go their way & then up & transfer. And lets be honest, we want players who want to come here regardless of how much NIL money we have to offer.
 

Ramaholic

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I'm gonna play devils advocate to this for a quick second. Will this really hurt us? Or will it more so help us get back to the way things were when VCU was thriving? Why do I say this?

Well lets take a look.... look at some of our most successful years & the make up of our team. Our Final 4 team.... how many of those players coming outta HS were Top 100 recruits? How many of them were 4-5 star recruits? Heck some/most of em might not even had been 2-3 stars.

Now sure you can absolutely say we got lucky because of the field expanding to 68.... and you can argue we shouldn't have been in there still... but the fact of the matter is... we got in... and we were doubted in every game pretty much & we made it to the Final 4. We made it because of coaching, team chemistry, and our team was pissed off because of all the "bulletin board material" the media was putting out there.

Now look at some of our best players since the Final Four Group.... Briante Weber, Treveon Graham, Bones Hyland just to name a few.... you could tell by the way they played they wanted to be here. Neither Briante nor Treveon were Top 100 recruits I don't think.... but look at how successful they were & overall how successful we were with them. Bones obviously was a Top 100 recruit & he certainly played like it.... and now hes in the pros after 2 years of college.... but there was never a doubt... he wanted to be here.

You look at this NIL stuff.... you're gonna get players going to schools that they may not initially have considered because they care more about the money than anything else.

Just as an example.... lets say a recruit has offers to play basketball at both VCU & Old Dominion & its their only 2 offers.... Neither of which is close to home, nor does the recruit have any connections to the schools, so that's not a factor.

Old Dominion somehow someway says we'll offer you $150,000 in NIL money to come here..... VCU says we'll offer you $65,000. I would almost guarantee you that kid is going to take the Old Dominion offer..... and not because he wants to go to Old Dominion more to play basketball. Where as before this NIL stuff, the recruit would probably choose us because overall we have the more successful basketball program, we've sent a players to the NBA a lot more recently than Old Dominion has, and overall our atmosphere at games is still better than their's.

We want players who want to be here. We want those guys that play with a chip on their shoulder. We want those guys that aren't gonna butt hurt when things don't go their way & then up & transfer. And lets be honest, we want players who want to come here regardless of how much NIL money we have to offer.
When you take the kids good enough to harvest rich NIL deals out of the equation, then the playing feild levels again and VCU rises to the top with our tough, gritty culture, tradition of winning and infectious enthusiastic environment. And with only a few exceptions, our best players were people other teams passed on. That type of player seems to thrive here.
 
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Is anyone else here with a business going to register for the exchange? I'm thinking about doing it to help the program/players even though I have a fintech startup that isn't location specific to Virginia and completely unrelated to basketball :lol:
 
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I'm gonna play devils advocate to this for a quick second. Will this really hurt us? Or will it more so help us get back to the way things were when VCU was thriving? Why do I say this?

Well lets take a look.... look at some of our most successful years & the make up of our team. Our Final 4 team.... how many of those players coming outta HS were Top 100 recruits? How many of them were 4-5 star recruits? Heck some/most of em might not even had been 2-3 stars.

Now sure you can absolutely say we got lucky because of the field expanding to 68.... and you can argue we shouldn't have been in there still... but the fact of the matter is... we got in... and we were doubted in every game pretty much & we made it to the Final 4. We made it because of coaching, team chemistry, and our team was pissed off because of all the "bulletin board material" the media was putting out there.

Now look at some of our best players since the Final Four Group.... Briante Weber, Treveon Graham, Bones Hyland just to name a few.... you could tell by the way they played they wanted to be here. Neither Briante nor Treveon were Top 100 recruits I don't think.... but look at how successful they were & overall how successful we were with them. Bones obviously was a Top 100 recruit & he certainly played like it.... and now hes in the pros after 2 years of college.... but there was never a doubt... he wanted to be here.

You look at this NIL stuff.... you're gonna get players going to schools that they may not initially have considered because they care more about the money than anything else.

Just as an example.... lets say a recruit has offers to play basketball at both VCU & Old Dominion & its their only 2 offers.... Neither of which is close to home, nor does the recruit have any connections to the schools, so that's not a factor.

Old Dominion somehow someway says we'll offer you $150,000 in NIL money to come here..... VCU says we'll offer you $65,000. I would almost guarantee you that kid is going to take the Old Dominion offer..... and not because he wants to go to Old Dominion more to play basketball. Where as before this NIL stuff, the recruit would probably choose us because overall we have the more successful basketball program, we've sent a players to the NBA a lot more recently than Old Dominion has, and overall our atmosphere at games is still better than their's.

We want players who want to be here. We want those guys that play with a chip on their shoulder. We want those guys that aren't gonna butt hurt when things don't go their way & then up & transfer. And lets be honest, we want players who want to come here regardless of how much NIL money we have to offer.
Gotta love the underd and I will always cherish the Final 4 run.. 1 BIG reason we had that run was our 3pnt shooting. We were over are heads on fire thru that tourney.

Main reason we shoot for “the stars” is consistency.. these ranked players have proven they can hit shots and play well game after game.
Less off nights more On nights = increased chances of winning.
 
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As much I love the final 4 as that was my senior year the fact is continuing use that for examples gets old. The fact is yes you might have a bunch of no stars mature into a contender but that’s a rarity. It’s like saying hey we didn’t win like any games in Feb than went to the final four. That took tons of luck and a very questionable decision by the committee that was heavily criticized. You need to have some proven talent these days. It’s easier to build a team and it’s easier to lure other talent. While it’s amazing to have players that truly want to be here they need to be at the level of our program.
 

RowdyPkunk

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As much I love the final 4 as that was my senior year the fact is continuing use that for examples gets old. The fact is yes you might have a bunch of no stars mature into a contender but that’s a rarity. It’s like saying hey we didn’t win like any games in Feb than went to the final four. That took tons of luck and a very questionable decision by the committee that was heavily criticized. You need to have some proven talent these days. It’s easier to build a team and it’s easier to lure other talent. While it’s amazing to have players that truly want to be here they need to be at the level of our program.
Actually winning & winning consistently makes it easier to lure talent to our school.... than just having talent alone.

And how do you win... by recruiting players that fit your system that you're trying to run. For example.... you're not gonna recruit a player like a Zion Williamson or Tacko Fall to run the Havoc like tempo style of play. But a player like Ja Morant who can get up and down the court, can shoot the ball & play defense.... you would absolutely recruit a player like that for our system if available.

Look at Bones for example.... very similar style player to Ja Morant... plays hard nose def, can shoot the ball, can attack the basket.... hes a player that fit our system perfectly for how MR wants to run a game. However, I'm sure if we go back & look at some of the other players we've recruited over the years (not going to name names).... we all can sit here and if we are being completely honest & just looking at their on court abilities & skill sets... we could all prob name 3-4 (if not more) players that were not made to play the Havoc Style.... and this isn't just under MR, but in general..... yet we recruited them here anyway. Some of them didn't last but 1 season, others stayed for a year or 2 & then bounced, others stayed til they graduated. And some of those guys were the nicest of people, this aint a knock on who they are as a person... but they were not best suited for our style of play.

On top of that.... We need to bring in players that want to be here. I don't care how good a player is.... if they're going to come in here & cause problems or complain because "I should be starting" or "I want more playing time" etc.... or complain because a freshman came in & started taking play time from them because they earned it & start causing drama because of that.... we don't need that $#!t.

Winning every game is the goal right? Winning a National Championship is the goal right? If it was as easy as just bringing in the best players every year.... Why does Duke/UNC/Kansas... etc. not win the National Championship every year? You had Coach K for the past 40+ years at Duke.... he had 5 National Titles in that time.... Roy Williams was at UNC for 18 seasons & Kansas for 15 seasons, has 3 National Titles (All at UNC).... 2 of the best coaches in the history of college Basketball.. yet between them they have 8 national Titles over a 40 year span.... and you can argue that probably half of those years at least either Duke, or Kansas/UNC under Coach K & Roy Williams, had the best players overall in college basketball in terms of overall skills & abilities.... yet there's 31 seasons where neither Duke nor Kansas/UNC (under Roy Williams tenures) won the Natty (and of course 2020 where there was no Natty).

Heck, while neither or you or I were alive to see it.... anyone who was alive will tell you that UCLA was absolutely the most dominant program through the mid 60's, to mid 70's under John Wooden. They won 10 titles in 12 years.... including 7 straight at one point. So I'm sure UCLA was loaded with talent.... probably wasn't hard to recruit people to UCLA in general but especially in those days.... but even the best coach & the best program at the time had 2 years where they weren't even in the National Championship game.... heck, in 1966 they were the 2 time defending National Champions... and guess what, They didn't even make the NCAA Tournament.

And that year... a program called UTEP beat an Adolph Rupp (4x Nat'l Champion Head Coach) coached Kentucky team.... Kentucky prob had the better roster based on player rankings.... but did they win? Nope!

In College basketball the best team in terms of talent doesn't always win.
 
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When you take the kids good enough to harvest rich NIL deals out of the equation, then the playing feild levels again and VCU rises to the top with our tough, gritty culture, tradition of winning and infectious enthusiastic environment. And with only a few exceptions, our best players were people other teams passed on. That type of player seems to thrive here.
And if they thrive and we dont pony up, they will leave
 
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Actually winning & winning consistently makes it easier to lure talent to our school.... than just having talent alone.

And how do you win... by recruiting players that fit your system that you're trying to run. For example.... you're not gonna recruit a player like a Zion Williamson or Tacko Fall to run the Havoc like tempo style of play. But a player like Ja Morant who can get up and down the court, can shoot the ball & play defense.... you would absolutely recruit a player like that for our system if available.

Look at Bones for example.... very similar style player to Ja Morant... plays hard nose def, can shoot the ball, can attack the basket.... hes a player that fit our system perfectly for how MR wants to run a game. However, I'm sure if we go back & look at some of the other players we've recruited over the years (not going to name names).... we all can sit here and if we are being completely honest & just looking at their on court abilities & skill sets... we could all prob name 3-4 (if not more) players that were not made to play the Havoc Style.... and this isn't just under MR, but in general..... yet we recruited them here anyway. Some of them didn't last but 1 season, others stayed for a year or 2 & then bounced, others stayed til they graduated. And some of those guys were the nicest of people, this aint a knock on who they are as a person... but they were not best suited for our style of play.

On top of that.... We need to bring in players that want to be here. I don't care how good a player is.... if they're going to come in here & cause problems or complain because "I should be starting" or "I want more playing time" etc.... or complain because a freshman came in & started taking play time from them because they earned it & start causing drama because of that.... we don't need that $#!t.

Winning every game is the goal right? Winning a National Championship is the goal right? If it was as easy as just bringing in the best players every year.... Why does Duke/UNC/Kansas... etc. not win the National Championship every year? You had Coach K for the past 40+ years at Duke.... he had 5 National Titles in that time.... Roy Williams was at UNC for 18 seasons & Kansas for 15 seasons, has 3 National Titles (All at UNC).... 2 of the best coaches in the history of college Basketball.. yet between them they have 8 national Titles over a 40 year span.... and you can argue that probably half of those years at least either Duke, or Kansas/UNC under Coach K & Roy Williams, had the best players overall in college basketball in terms of overall skills & abilities.... yet there's 31 seasons where neither Duke nor Kansas/UNC (under Roy Williams tenures) won the Natty (and of course 2020 where there was no Natty).

Heck, while neither or you or I were alive to see it.... anyone who was alive will tell you that UCLA was absolutely the most dominant program through the mid 60's, to mid 70's under John Wooden. They won 10 titles in 12 years.... including 7 straight at one point. So I'm sure UCLA was loaded with talent.... probably wasn't hard to recruit people to UCLA in general but especially in those days.... but even the best coach & the best program at the time had 2 years where they weren't even in the National Championship game.... heck, in 1966 they were the 2 time defending National Champions... and guess what, They didn't even make the NCAA Tournament.

And that year... a program called UTEP beat an Adolph Rupp (4x Nat'l Champion Head Coach) coached Kentucky team.... Kentucky prob had the better roster based on player rankings.... but did they win? Nope!

In College basketball the best team in terms of talent doesn't always win.
Look at Bones for example.... yeay if we had 100k in NIL money for the kid, do you think he might have decided to stay at VCU a year and bulk up a little?
 

RowdyPkunk

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Look at Bones for example.... yeay if we had 100k in NIL money for the kid, do you think he might have decided to stay at VCU a year and bulk up a little?
Honestly? No. Because he was getting 1st round draft grades. and he's gonna make more off a rookie contract in the NBA than he would 4 years at VCU because we don't have the NIL money to keep them around.... so as soon as he's ready to make that jump to the NBA... he was gonna be good as gone. Just like he was.... and honestly... as much as I woulda loved to watch Bones stay & play at VCU more..... hes gotta do what's best for him & his family at that point.

And the biggest thing is.... lets say he decides... "Well, even though I'm getting 1st round draft grades... I'm gonna go back to school & build my stock more because I wanna bring my school a Natty" or "I wanna be the #1 overall pick, or a lottery pick"..... and then god for bid he goes out there and has a season ending injury...... his draft stock would ABSOLUTELY PLUMMET. Not because he's not a good kid, or a good talent.... but teams are going to be hesitant to use a draft pick on him because they don't know the extent of his injuries.

Where as if he goes while hes getting first round draft grades.... gets drafted in the first round.... and then gets hurt. He's already making his money, and the NBA Teams & their doctors will know more about the injury & working with him every day on rehab, plus they can send him to the G-League to work on stuff if needed... etc.

No chance $100,000 in NIL money woulda kept Bones around for another year, let alone 2 more years.... No Chance in he!!
 
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Honestly? No. Because he was getting 1st round draft grades. and he's gonna make more off a rookie contract in the NBA than he would 4 years at VCU because we don't have the NIL money to keep them around.... so as soon as he's ready to make that jump to the NBA... he was gonna be good as gone. Just like he was.... and honestly... as much as I woulda loved to watch Bones stay & play at VCU more..... hes gotta do what's best for him & his family at that point.

And the biggest thing is.... lets say he decides... "Well, even though I'm getting 1st round draft grades... I'm gonna go back to school & build my stock more because I wanna bring my school a Natty" or "I wanna be the #1 overall pick, or a lottery pick"..... and then god for bid he goes out there and has a season ending injury...... his draft stock would ABSOLUTELY PLUMMET. Not because he's not a good kid, or a good talent.... but teams are going to be hesitant to use a draft pick on him because they don't know the extent of his injuries.

Where as if he goes while hes getting first round draft grades.... gets drafted in the first round.... and then gets hurt. He's already making his money, and the NBA Teams & their doctors will know more about the injury & working with him every day on rehab, plus they can send him to the G-League to work on stuff if needed... etc.

No chance $100,000 in NIL money woulda kept Bones around for another year, let alone 2 more years.... No Chance in he!!
Bad example on my part.
But how many big time recruits think about VCU, then pass? Some one getting a decent NIL $ from the Ram Fans could tip it.
One sure fire subset of that would be when we "rent" a senior or grad who come in for one year and fills a gap.
We could win a lot of those races over the rest of the A10.
Go to the "former Rams" thread, look at the ones who left us before they graduated, then think about which ones would have been nice to keep.
 
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