Reseating Thread

RowdyPkunk

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May 19, 2009
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Huuuuge mistake to follow thru with the reseating after ticket sales were already down, the season fell apart, and Covid. You can throw all the other things out, and just let the covid issue stand. Horrible, horrible move.

I don't think that was a mistake honestly.

What I think is/was the mistake.... is the fact of.... if Fans are not allowed in, or are in limited capacity.... that they aren't giving those fans who can not attend (or choose not to with the Covid stuff going on).... an option to push their season ticket purchases toward next season. Like @Wolfpack Ram has said... NC State is doing it & they are a much bigger school than we are. And I'm sure there's A LOT of other schools doing this.... SO WHY CAN'T VCU?
 
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Ramaholic

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Well, most people that I have talked to upgraded their seating or kept their seats. The cost was the same so not sure why it was horrible.
The movie "A Beautiful Mind" is the true story of Noble prize economist John Nash. Prior to Nash, the prevailing theory of group interaction b/w parties in an economic transaction was that individuals each striving solely for their own self interest was best. Nash, disputed that with the concept to be known as the Nash Equilibrium. He proved that through his notion of Game Theory. He demonstrated this in a simple experiment in which 2 parties sat across from each other at a table. Subject A had ten $1 bills in front of him on the table. He could offer Subject B any combination of the ten $1 bills. He could offer Subject B $2 (which meant he kept $8). He could offer Subject B $3 (meaning he keeps $7). The only actions subject B was allowed to take was either: Take what was given to him or he could say "Burn the money" which meant neither subject A or B received anything.
Well in most cases Subject A would start off offering $1 or $2 and Subject B in most cases would greedily take the money (Hey, something is better than nothing). But as the game plays out again and again over time, most Subject B's will wise up and recognize the excessive greed of Subject A and say "Burn the money" in knowing he has some important control of the outcome. Eventually the transactions would be a 50/50 or 60/ 40 equitable split for a win/win as the game played out over time.
In short, I think the VCU AD is coming perilously close to ignoring other peoples pain/ financial struggles that Covid has presented the donor base and just moved along as nothing happened and seemingly making no cut backs. Sure some people are getting better seats. But other donors are saying "Burn the money" and dropping off.
I admit this is an incredibly challenging times, but I think the AD has made some self serving moves at a time they could have showed a little compassion to the donor base. Time will tell how it plays out.
 
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PRock

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I don't think that was a mistake honestly.

What I think is/was the mistake.... is the fact of.... if Fans are not allowed in, or are in limited capacity.... that they aren't giving those fans who can not attend (or choose not to with the Covid stuff going on).... an option to push their season ticket purchases toward next season. Like @Wolfpack Ram has said... NC State is doing it & they are a much bigger school than we are. And I'm sure there's A LOT of other schools doing this.... SO WHY CAN'T VCU?

NC State and other big schools have ACC TV money from football and hoops and much much bigger donor bases from which to help them make it through rainy days.

Bigger picture, It would be nice if folks cut the VCU AD a bit of slack on this. Between the obvious impacts of COVID and associated uncertainty, this is a real tough spot for a program like ours—we are more like a small business than a big franchise (P5), in these times. Perhaps folks can back off the animosity and figure out if/how they can help keep the program moving forward during tough times. If we are really a Ramily, now is the time to show it with maybe a bit more understanding and less malcontentedness.

These times are tough on all of us—do what’s best for you and yours, but maybe chill on the constant ripping of a small AD, trying to figure stuff out on the fly.

@Rowdy, not directed at you other than the opening reference to NCSU, just happens to be the last note in the string.
 
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VCU85

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Well, most people that I have talked to upgraded their seating or kept their seats. The cost was the same so not sure why it was horrible.
And in the process they lost (long time) fans in the seats. So while some profited did the program actually achieve what it hoped it would ? Public relations... how does it work ?
 
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PRock

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The movie "A Beautiful Mind" is the true story of Noble prize economist John Nash. Prior to Nash, the prevailing theory of group interaction b/w parties in an economic transaction was that individuals each striving solely for their own self interest was best. Nash, disputed that with the concept to be known as the Nash Equilibrium. He proved that through his notion of Game Theory. He demonstrated this in a simple experiment in which 2 parties sat across from each other at a table. Subject A had ten $1 bills in front of him on the table. He could offer Subject B any combination of the ten $1 bills. He could offer Subject B $2 (which meant he kept $8). He could offer Subject B $3 (meaning he keeps $7). The only actions subject B was allowed to take was either: Take what was given to him or he could say "Burn the money" which meant neither subject A or B received anything.
Well in most cases Subject A would start off offering $1 or $2 and Subject B in most cases would greedily take the money (Hey, something is better than nothing). But as the game plays out again and again over time, most Subject B's will wise up and recognize the excessive greed of Subject A and say "Burn the money" in knowing he has some important control of the outcome. Eventually the transactions would be a 50/50 or 60/ 40 equitable split for a win/win as the game played out over time.
In short, I think the VCU AD is coming perilously close to ignoring other peoples pain/ financial struggles that Covid has presented the donor base and just moved along as nothing happened and seemingly making no cut backs. Sure some people are getting better seats. But other donors are saying "Burn the money" and dropping off.
I admit this is an incredibly challenging times, but I think the AD has made some self serving moves at a time they could have showed a little compassion to the donor base. Time will tell how it plays out.

Nash equilibrium applies to non-cooperative games with perfect and complete information—showing that regardless of circumstances players will pursue their dominant strategy, which is the one that will deliver the highest payoff in light of their expectation that the other player will do the same. The “beauty” of his finding is that it shows there is no incentive to change strategy for either player, hence the net outcome is always a best compromise, in which neither party achieves their best or worst outcome. The example provided is one often used to reinforce the stability of Nash Equilibrium by showing even in the case of a multistage game—equilibrium is ultimately met, therefore by way of backward induction it proves that player A should offer $5 and player B should accept—as neither can not expect to do better at any stage of the game and regardless of how many stages, they will maximize their payouts by pursuing said dominant strategies.

Given that the situation between the AD and fan base is more of a multi-stage cooperative game with information asymmetries, not sure the concept of Nash equilibrium really applies.
 
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RowdyPkunk

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NC State and other big schools have ACC TV money from football and hoops and much much bigger donor bases from which to help them make it through rainy days.

Bigger picture, It would be nice if folks cut the VCU AD a bit of slack on this. Between the obvious impacts of COVID and associated uncertainty, this is a real tough spot for a program like ours—we are more like a small business than a big franchise (P5), in these times. Perhaps folks can back off the animosity and figure out if/how they can help keep the program moving forward during tough times. If we are really a Ramily, now is the time to show it with maybe a bit more understanding and less malcontentedness.

These times are tough on all of us—do what’s best for you and yours, but maybe chill on the constant ripping of a small AD, trying to figure stuff out on the fly.

@Rowdy, not directed at you other than the opening reference to NCSU, just happens to be the last note in the string.

But here's the issue man.... as you say NC State & other big schools (ACC, SEC, Big 10... etc.) have much larger donor bases.... so if one person asks for a refund or opts out & decides not to renew their season tickets or their donation.... or decides to lower their donation amounts... it does't affect those bigger schools like it affects VCU. Yet those schools are willing to allow their fanbase to push their 2020-21 season ticket purchases to 21-22 season.

VCU is not a P5 school.... we don't have money coming in hand over fist every year, that one down year with no fans in the stands is just a mere bump in the road. We also do not have a football program bringing in tons of money. So if anything, VCU being a smaller school.... should be the one giving that extra option, as a way to keep that money in the AD.

And where it's seemingly becoming more & more likely that little or no fans will be in attendance, basically you are giving fans 2 options.... either ask for a refund, or have your money be converted to a phil. donation.

Why not allow the fans who have purchased season tickes, in hope there's a season that allows fans this year, to push their season tickets towards next year if no fans are allowed. As you can see, some people on here have already started requesting refunds, while some of us are waiting for an official word from VCU as to how many (if any fans) are going to be allowed in the arena this year. Once that is decided.... you're going to see a lot more refunds most likely.

But, if you give people the option to push their season ticket purchase towards next year.... You keep that money in the Athletic Department.... and maybe some of the people who have been bickering about the AD's handling of this whole situation... will cut the AD some slack.

I'd be willing to bet, that if the AD would be willing to give us the option to push our season tickets back to next year.... the number of refunds (in the end result) will be much less.

Yes I get it, Covid has made things tough for everyone, that includes the fans/donors, but lemme ask you this...

If you were the AD at VCU & had to make a decision in this current pandemic.... Which would you rather do? Have to dish out 3000+ season ticket refunds at $500 a pop (not counting any parking passes).... or allow people to push their season tickets back a year & keep the majority of that money in the Ath. Department?

Idk how many season tickets were actually sold to this point, so I just went with 3000 as a rough number, but just for math sakes.... 3000 season tickets at $500 a piece (not counting fees, taxes, or parking passes).... that totals out at $1,500,000 dollars.

So in these rough times, and us not being a P5 school with TV Revenue money coming in hand over fist..... $1.5 million is A LOT of money to lose for a school like VCU... and from a business standpoint, I would want to keep as much money in the AD as possible without screwing over the fan base at the same time.

And one way VCU could do that, is by giving people the option of pushing our season ticket purchases back to 2021-22 season.
 

Riggo82

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But here's the issue man.... as you say NC State & other big schools (ACC, SEC, Big 10... etc.) have much larger donor bases.... so if one person asks for a refund or opts out & decides not to renew their season tickets or their donation.... or decides to lower their donation amounts... it does't affect those bigger schools like it affects VCU. Yet those schools are willing to allow their fanbase to push their 2020-21 season ticket purchases to 21-22 season.

VCU is not a P5 school.... we don't have money coming in hand over fist every year, that one down year with no fans in the stands is just a mere bump in the road. We also do not have a football program bringing in tons of money. So if anything, VCU being a smaller school.... should be the one giving that extra option, as a way to keep that money in the AD.

And where it's seemingly becoming more & more likely that little or no fans will be in attendance, basically you are giving fans 2 options.... either ask for a refund, or have your money be converted to a phil. donation.

Why not allow the fans who have purchased season tickes, in hope there's a season that allows fans this year, to push their season tickets towards next year if no fans are allowed. As you can see, some people on here have already started requesting refunds, while some of us are waiting for an official word from VCU as to how many (if any fans) are going to be allowed in the arena this year. Once that is decided.... you're going to see a lot more refunds most likely.

But, if you give people the option to push their season ticket purchase towards next year.... You keep that money in the Athletic Department.... and maybe some of the people who have been bickering about the AD's handling of this whole situation... will cut the AD some slack.

I'd be willing to bet, that if the AD would be willing to give us the option to push our season tickets back to next year.... the number of refunds (in the end result) will be much less.

Yes I get it, Covid has made things tough for everyone, that includes the fans/donors, but lemme ask you this...

If you were the AD at VCU & had to make a decision in this current pandemic.... Which would you rather do? Have to dish out 3000+ season ticket refunds at $500 a pop (not counting any parking passes).... or allow people to push their season tickets back a year & keep the majority of that money in the Ath. Department?

Idk how many season tickets were actually sold to this point, so I just went with 3000 as a rough number, but just for math sakes.... 3000 season tickets at $500 a piece (not counting fees, taxes, or parking passes).... that totals out at $1,500,000 dollars.

So in these rough times, and us not being a P5 school with TV Revenue money coming in hand over fist..... $1.5 million is A LOT of money to lose for a school like VCU... and from a business standpoint, I would want to keep as much money in the AD as possible without screwing over the fan base at the same time.

And one way VCU could do that, is by giving people the option of pushing our season ticket purchases back to 2021-22 season.
Or we can just stick our refund in a savings account and use next year. Or better yet, put in a Roth IRA investment account, let it grow tax free, and take out penalty free in 10 months to purchase tickets next year.
 

Ramaholic

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Nash equilibrium applies to non-cooperative games with perfect and complete information—showing that regardless of circumstances players will pursue their dominant strategy, which is the one that will deliver the highest payoff in light of their expectation that the other player will do the same. The “beauty” of his finding is that it shows there is no incentive to change strategy for either player, hence the net outcome is always a best compromise, in which neither party achieves their best or worst outcome. The example provided is one often used to reinforce the stability of Nash Equilibrium by showing even in the case of a multistage game—equilibrium is ultimately met, therefore by way of backward induction it proves that player A should offer $5 and player B should accept—as neither can not expect to do better at any stage of the game and regardless of how many stages, they will maximize their payouts by pursuing said dominant strategies.

Given that the situation between the AD and fan base is more of a multi-stage cooperative game with information asymmetries, not sure the concept of Nash equilibrium really applies.
Very impressed with your statements. I have great respect for your passion as a fan as well.
I haven't studied Nash's work formally at an educational institution, but rather picked up on his work while prectically using it while starting and growing my company. I believe our current AD is shifting us away from a multi-stage cooperative game as they focus more on a transaction exchange for donors $$ for tangible benefits. IMO, game theory and some version of the Nash Equilibrium is present across most repeated economic transactions. Something as simple as getting a "Value meal" at a fast food drive thru or a super size fries is evidence of the Nash Equilibrium imo. Whether VCU wants to believe it or not, long time fans are saying "Burn the money". I have no explanation for this other than VCU needs to shift there position or double down in hopes there current strategy which I believe is slightly tone deaf to what many donors are experiencing personally, will pay off. Time and dollar figures will show.
 
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Havoc City

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Or we can just stick our refund in a savings account and use next year. Or better yet, put in a Roth IRA investment account, let it grow tax free, and take out penalty free in 10 months to purchase tickets next year.
Yeah, because that's how a Roth IRA works. :roll:
 
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PRock

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Very impressed with your statements. I have great respect for your passion as a fan as well.
I haven't studied Nash's work formally at an educational institution, but rather picked up on his work while prectically using it while starting and growing my company. I believe our current AD is shifting us away from a multi-stage cooperative game as they focus more on a transaction exchange for donors $$ for tangible benefits. IMO, game theory and some version of the Nash Equilibrium is present across most repeated economic transactions. Something as simple as getting a "Value meal" at a fast food drive thru or a super size fries is evidence of the Nash Equilibrium imo. Whether VCU wants to believe it or not, long time fans are saying "Burn the money". I have no explanation for this other than VCU needs to shift there position or double down in hopes there current strategy which I believe is slightly tone deaf to what many donors are experiencing personally, will pay off. Time and dollar figures will show.

hey, i was impressed somebody brought up game theory to beging with. I see your point and Rowdy’s as well. It’s a crap situation. I am legitimately concerned about the impact all this will have on the program both hoops and overall. We don’t have sustainable media contracts and relatively speaking our active donor base is small. Attendance and donations are the two largest sources of revenue for the department outside of institutional support and NCAA payouts (all schools missed this last year)—i expect that institutional support will become an increasing concern and obviously it looks like attendance will be limited as well, so the only real viable source of dollars to support AD operations is to tap the donor base and hope for grace among the fan base as things get sorted out.

I honestly don’t know the specific details of the AD balance sheet, though I suspect it is suffering. My take is the strategy now is literally to get whatever they can get to keep things floating AND hope donor/season ticket churn is not too bad. I think people need to make decisions that are best for them, but I really don’t think there is anything sinister in the current strategy by the AD. i really suspect they are probably trying to keep the plates spinning without too much damage.
 
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DisplacedRam

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I will take my chances. I am hopeful that i will be one of the lucky 1000 if there is a lucky 1000.

I wonder if by whatever means they utilize to decide who gets in says that your ticket is a lucky winner would you be able to give it or sell it to someone else?
 
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Riggo82

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Yeah, because that's how a Roth IRA works. :roll:
It is how a Roth works. A little known fact — you can take out any money you contribute to the Roth IRA at any time penalty free. The money grows tax free in the investment account. If you take out any of the investment growth, then you pay a penalty. But cash you put in can come out at any time. Roth is the best way to grow a savings fund. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rothira.asp
 
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Ramaholic

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It is how a Roth works. A little known fact — you can take out any money you contribute to the Roth IRA at any time penalty free. The money grows tax free in the investment account. If you take out any of the investment growth, then you pay a penalty. But cash you put in can come out at any time. Roth is the best way to grow a savings fund. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rothira.asp
Wow!!! I had no idea about that fact.
My personal advice is to always pay yourself first. That includes maxing out your company retirement plan and other retirement plans (IRA's). You can't guarantee many things in life but growing older and needing money is one of them. After paying yourself first, then see what is left over for trips, toys, dining out, tickets, donations... If you don't have enough $$ for those things then get your side hustle on and make money being Ubering or working part time.
There is some occasional banter on here accusing people that don't buy tickets as not being true fans. To that I say; "Baloney!" Buying VCU tickets is not cheap and some of the most passionate die hard fans I know do not have tickets. Take care of you and yours first and foremost. There is zero shame in passing on tickets for a few years.
 

Wolfpack Ram

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I guess you missed out on the email of 9/17/2020 that said:

2020-21 Men’s Basketball Opt-Out Policy

VCU Athletics will offer donors the ability to opt out of their season tickets for the 2020-21 while still maintaining the ability to retain their seat selection for the 2021-22 season. In order to do so, please follow this process:

  1. Participate in the 2020-21 reseating and/or renew your Capital Campaign, Club or Floor seats
  2. Select and pay for your 2020-21 season tickets to reserve them (payment plan or full payment)
  3. Opt out by emailing tickets@vcu.edu or raf@vcu.edu
  4. Information regarding ticket refunds will come from VCU Athletics following your renewal.
  5. You will maintain your seats for the 2021-22 season if you maintain the appropriate giving level
Maybe I am just that important to the RAF.🤫

That e-mail was 45 days ago. It costs little or nothing to send out e-mail updates/reminders to the season ticket holder. And where in that email did it state October 30th was the deadline to opt out? :roll:
 
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