"The Army" as a recruiting tool

VCU_Redskins

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I was just listening to the SFU post game with Coach and he was talking about how one night it will be Santos' night, the next it could be Evans', and the next it could be IVs. He said that everyone understands this and buys in to "The Army" mentality. He also stated he tries not to differentiate people based on being a starter or being on the bench.

This got me curious, how does VCU recruit high-level players while at the same time say they'll be sharing a lot of their minutes? How do they convince top recruits to come when they know it'll be hard breaking Melvin's 3pt record or Maynor's points record because of their limited play?

I personally wouldn't mind this, I would just want to be on a winning team and contribute my part to said team, but I'm also not a superstar athlete/future NBA player.

Would the next LeBron want to come to VCU? Is this just the mentality VCU has to have being a "mid-major"?

Or are superstar athletes just simply not as selfish as I'm imagining?

(This is all aside from the fact that VCU is great all on its own, that we have the best fan base, best arena and one of the most amazing development centers in the country.)
 

Half-baked Mcbride

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Interesting question...not to sound cynical, but I think a lot of what keeps those "Top Ranked Players" continuously matriculating to the same 10-15 P5 schools are the extra's VCU simply cannot (or won't) offer.
Crazy nice facilities
Crazy nice dorms/food/etc.
Top shelf TV deals
Shoe company stuff (wink wink)
Strong a$$ offers being a normal, and expected, thing
Cache value/eye test of being part of "those schools"
Springboard to the NBA

VCU has carved out a nearly singular and legitimate Top Mid Major program....winning on the regular/pretty nice facilities/dorms/food, some kind of shoe deal, not zero NBA players, not a horrible TV schedule....and we attract the kind of student/athlete who understands "Yes, I will get a shot to play in a legit D1 program provided I work my a$$ off and take care of business on and off the court"......so that means a steady stream of 3 stars/occasional 4 stars/never 5 star one and dones (probably).

Like @TampaKAP said...it is a combination of things.

but continued investment into the program, continued tenure of MR and STaff, and continued winning/Dancing?? That's our MO....and it's pretty sweet to be a part of.
 

RowdyPkunk

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I'm not an expert at recruiting by any means.... but most of the higher rated recruits (Top 50ish) don't even seriously consider VCU in large part because outside of 1 Final 4 run.... what has our program accomplished? Sure Since 2004, we've only missed the NCAA Tourney a Total of 5 times (05, 06, 08, 10, 18)… which is pretty impressive for a Non P5/Big East/AAC school.... not sure who else outside of the P5/Big East/AAC besides Gonzaga & Maybe Wichita State (who is now in the AAC) would be able to say the same feat or better over the last 15 or so years.... but we've also only made it out of the First Weekend 1 time.

From what I've seen in my time as being a Ram Fan.... it's a team mentality.... sure when Maynor was here, he took over games A LOT, however, he got other guys involved. He didn't just make it the Eric Maynor only show for 40 minutes every night. That be said though, when the game was on the line, He certainly stepped up & took the lead role in finishing off opponents, (See GMU CAA Tourney 2007 & of course hitting the big shot against Duke that same year).

But look at our Final Run.... One night it was Rozzell lighting it up, another night it was Skeen, another night it was Brad. Obviously J-Rod & Nixon had their inputs as well. That squad especially there was no 1 guy that was always going to be the one to step up & finish off a team. Whoever had the hot hand on any given night was the go to guy.

And even with VCU getting better in recruiting since that Final 4 run... we have stuck with the team mentality aspect. Sure we want players to go out and make a name for themselves & maybe improve their "draft stock" or what not, but we are a "Team First" team... not a "Player First" team. No one player on the team, regardless of how good a player is, is above the rest of the team. We spread the ball around, everyone does their part. We want team first players, not players who wanna be the human highlight reel every night. That's why guys like Reco & Larrier were better off transferring when they did in my opinion.

One night MSS might have the hot hand & we feed him the ball. Another night it may be DJ, another night it may be ME, another night maybe it's Corey, IV or Vince, heck maybe one of our starters gets in foul trouble early, and you have guys like Bones or Ward who step up & provide a spark off the bench. And lets not forget Mr. Crowfield, who when he gets locked in, can be a force from behind the arc.

And while VCU may still be considered a "mid major" to many P5 schools & their fans.... the majority of us around obviously are under the belief that we are no longer a Mid Major.

If we were still a "mid major" & were not recruiting at such a high level & making the tournament just about every year like we are, then I could see going out there trying to get that one big name recruit to be our "Star" to "build the team around" so to speak.... but right now we don't need that. If you wanna play at VCU... you gotta be willing to be a team player. You gotta understand, it's not always going to be the "(insert recruit name here) Show" every night. That's just not our style.
 

N Mollen

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Interesting question...not to sound cynical, but I think a lot of what keeps those "Top Ranked Players" continuously matriculating to the same 10-15 P5 schools are the extra's VCU simply cannot (or won't) offer.
Crazy nice facilities
Crazy nice dorms/food/etc.
Top shelf TV deals
Shoe company stuff (wink wink)
Strong a$$ offers being a normal, and expected, thing
Cache value/eye test of being part of "those schools"
Springboard to the NBA

VCU has carved out a nearly singular and legitimate Top Mid Major program....winning on the regular/pretty nice facilities/dorms/food, some kind of shoe deal, not zero NBA players, not a horrible TV schedule....and we attract the kind of student/athlete who understands "Yes, I will get a shot to play in a legit D1 program provided I work my a$$ off and take care of business on and off the court"......so that means a steady stream of 3 stars/occasional 4 stars/never 5 star one and dones (probably).

Like @TampaKAP said...it is a combination of things.

but continued investment into the program, continued tenure of MR and STaff, and continued winning/Dancing?? That's our MO....and it's pretty sweet to be a part of.
Agree with most of this but we aren't losing recruits bc of facilities or dorms/food/etc. We are at the top of the heap (or very very close) on all that

I think it is prestige of the conference (or lack thereof) and perceived platform for the NBA. Play on ESPN and not MASN w/o sound
 

Wolfpack Ram

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Apr 21, 2009
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Interesting question...not to sound cynical, but I think a lot of what keeps those "Top Ranked Players" continuously matriculating to the same 10-15 P5 schools are the extra's VCU simply cannot (or won't) offer.
Crazy nice facilities
Crazy nice dorms/food/etc.
Top shelf TV deals
Shoe company stuff (wink wink)
Strong a$$ offers being a normal, and expected, thing
Cache value/eye test of being part of "those schools"
Springboard to the NBA

VCU has carved out a nearly singular and legitimate Top Mid Major program....winning on the regular/pretty nice facilities/dorms/food, some kind of shoe deal, not zero NBA players, not a horrible TV schedule....and we attract the kind of student/athlete who understands "Yes, I will get a shot to play in a legit D1 program provided I work my a$$ off and take care of business on and off the court"......so that means a steady stream of 3 stars/occasional 4 stars/never 5 star one and dones (probably).

Like @TampaKAP said...it is a combination of things.

but continued investment into the program, continued tenure of MR and STaff, and continued winning/Dancing?? That's our MO....and it's pretty sweet to be a part of.
The other two things that will help VCU in recruiting big time is being able to having staying power in the Top 25 and also being able to make it to the second weekend of the NCAA Tournament on a regular basis. It would also help being able to knock off quality P-5 schools on a regular basis in these early season tournaments.

VCU's goal at this point should just not be to be competitive in the A10 and make the NCAA's. It's goal should be to be competitive with schools in higher rated conferences, including the P-5 schools and win games in the NCAA's.
 

RowdyPkunk

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Agree with most of this but we aren't losing recruits bc of facilities or dorms/food/etc. We are at the top of the heap (or very very close) on all that

I think it is prestige of the conference (or lack thereof) and perceived platform for the NBA. Play on ESPN and not MASN w/o sound
That and those higher rated recruits want to play for a team that historically is going to make a deep run in the tourney just about every year. Sure the Duke's, UNC's, Kansas' Kentucky... etc. have their first or second round hiccups in the tourney from time to time... but historically you can just about pen them into the 2nd weekend of the NCAA tourney most years.... the same can't be said yet for us.
 

N Mollen

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The other two things that will help VCU in recruiting big time is being able to having staying power in the Top 25 and also being able to make it to the second weekend of the NCAA Tournament on a regular basis. It would also help being able to knock off quality P-5 schools on a regular basis in these early season tournaments.

VCU's goal at this point should just not be to be competitive in the A10 and make the NCAA's. It's goal should be to be competitive with schools in higher rated conferences, including the P-5 schools and win games in the NCAA's.
My theory over the years has been that the only thing holding us back was the revolving door w/r/t coaching staff. I suppose that theory is about to be put to the test because I don't see MR going anywhere anytime soon
 

Wolfpack Ram

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That and those higher rated recruits want to play for a team that historically is going to make a deep run in the tourney just about every year. Sure the Duke's, UNC's, Kansas' Kentucky... etc. have their first or second round hiccups in the tourney from time to time... but historically you can just about pen them into the 2nd weekend of the NCAA tourney most years.... the same can't be said yet for us.
VCU has now been to the NCAA Tournament 17 times. Only once have they made it to the second weekend. Four other times, VCU was a #5 seed and one year was a #2 seed and didn't make it to the second weekend in any of those years. Since the 2011 Final Four run, VCU is 3-7 in the NCAA Tournament. That has to change.
 
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Wolfpack Ram

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My theory over the years has been that the only thing holding us back was the revolving door w/r/t coaching staff. I suppose that theory is about to be put to the test because I don't see MR going anywhere anytime soon
Shaka took VCU to the NCAA's 4 consecutive years after the Final Four run and never made it to the second weekend in any of those years.
 

RowdyPkunk

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My theory over the years has been that the only thing holding us back was the revolving door w/r/t coaching staff. I suppose that theory is about to be put to the test because I don't see MR going anywhere anytime soon
As far as the coaching staff point.... while I'm not gonna say it's not a factor (cause it is)… what's the reason we only got past the first weekend 1 time with Shaka?

Shaka we had for 6 seasons....
2011- Final 4
2012- Lost in Round of 32 to Indiana... some can argue we got hosed late in that game and shoulda gone farther.... but the fact is we didn't.
2013- Got owned by Michigan in the Round of 32 (yes it was basically a home game for them)
2014- SFA... enough said
2015- Lost a close one to Ohio State (sure Briante's season ending injury hurt us & Tre was playing hurt most of the season).

We had good teams those years... but why didn't we get to the Sweet 16 any of those years. One could certainly argue that we definitely could've/should've beaten Indiana in 2012 & SFA in 2014. One could also argue that maybe we could've/should've beaten Ohio State in 2015 despite the loss of Briante & the fact Treveon was dealing with injuries most of the year, but hey we won the A10 Tournament.... and we were certainly in the game against Ohio State.

So why couldn't we get to the 2nd round any of those years after the Final 4? Can't use the revolving coach door excuse there.
 
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mrgeode

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Agree with most of this but we aren't losing recruits bc of facilities or dorms/food/etc. We are at the top of the heap (or very very close) on all that

I think it is prestige of the conference (or lack thereof) and perceived platform for the NBA. Play on ESPN and not MASN w/o sound
This is why I'd move to the AAC in a hot second if they offered (which won't likely happen unless and until they negotiate a new TV contract, as that informs almost all expansion). I like the A-10 a lot, but the AAC is perceived to be the better league and has more cachet in national media eyes. Can only help recruiting.
 
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duncanlamb

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As far as the coaching staff point.... while I'm not gonna say it's not a factor (cause it is)… what's the reason we only got past the first weekend 1 time with Shaka?

Shaka we had for 6 seasons....
2011- Final 4
2012- Lost in Round of 32 to Indiana... some can argue we got hosed late in that game and shoulda gone farther.... but the fact is we didn't.
2013- Got owned by Michigan in the Round of 32 (yes it was basically a home game for them)
2014- SFA... enough said
2015- Lost a close one to Ohio State (sure Briante's season ending injury hurt us & Tre was playing hurt most of the season).
Our increasing over dependence on the relying on the four court press to create points! shaka's inability to institute offense to create spacing, depleting the role and recruitment of front court players and over reliance on ISO plays (tre and prey).

2013 michigan shredded our.defense because trey burke was able to slice thru our press and get to the underside, pass to open shooters or mitch mcgary for easy dunks.(11.for 12).

2015 - ohio st. Mo fouls out and we are left with foul prone jarred guest to protect the rim. Wade brings in handy the following year and we beat osu because mo has a decent backup center.
 

RowdyPkunk

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Our increasing over dependence on the relying on the four court press to create points! shaka's inability to institute offense to create spacing, depleting the role and recruitment of front court players and over reliance on ISO plays (tre and prey).

2013 michigan shredded our.defense because trey burke was able to slice thru our press and get to the underside, pass to open shooters or mitch mcgary for easy dunks.(11.for 12).

2015 - ohio st. Mo fouls out and we are left with foul prone jarred guest to protect the rim. Wade brings in handy the following year and we beat osu because mo has a decent backup center.
First off in the Ohio State game, while Mo fouling out certainly did not help matters (neither did not having Briante)…. Doug Brooks a very solid defender fouled out & our then starting PG Lewis had 4 turnovers.... Meanwhile we couldn't seem to stop D'Angelo Russell who had his way with us scoring 28 pts, knocking down several 3's and also grabbing 6 rebs. How do we let one of the smallest guys on the court get the rebound? And we managed to force OT against them... so again we were capable of beating Ohio State.... we just didn't.

Also Lets not pretend like Oregon state is on the same level as Ohio State. Also we had other bigs in terms of length (Tillman & Gilmore) who could've been used.... just like they were used to try slow down the bigs of Ohio state.
 
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