The Official Beat The Tennessee Volunteers in the Emerald Coast Classic

Mistachill

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Apr 20, 2009
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And you don't call that a blueprint of satisfaction since 2011??? They went from mid-major to P6! You chose 2011 as the starting point for your parameter, and now you want to spin it in a different direction? Really??? :roll: VCU fans would die to be in the Big East right now.
Why are you treating this like it's a political debate and anybody is trying to spin something. Dude, it's not that serious.

You selected two programs who were invited to the Big East (something we have no control over) two years after our final four, and you expect us to mirror them anyway? Remember, you were complaining about what we accomplished post final four, that's why I said since 2011, based on your comment.
 
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Wolfpack Ram

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I understand what you're saying. I'd love to be in a better conference, even though the A10 looks to be better this year and hopefully improving more the next few years (with some programs having some stable coaches). Wichita had a good run for a few years in the tourney a few years ago, but not so much recently. I don't know if those years were anomalies or the down years since. We have also had at least one down year, but seem to be on the rise now. I'll withhold judgment about whether they are on the rise or not, for one I just don't know enough to say. I do know they put a lot of resources into the program, so my guess is they'll be OK. But I like where we are now and I think we are headed in the right direction. A good run in the NCAA's this year would go a long way for us, I hope we can do that.
Actually Wichita State went 25-8 last year and 14-4 (tied for 2nd) in their first year in the AAC. They have also been to the NCAA Tournament every year for the last 7 years. They are 6-1 this year, but have games coming up against @Oklahoma State and home against Oklahoma and VCU. They very well may end up being VCU's toughest OOC game this year since it is at Wichita State.
 
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TampaKAP

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For discussion sake, what team has had three head coaches in 8 years that is has a better record than VCU? I think MR is here for the long haul(personal definition 8 or more years) Using SS 6 years for comparison, I don't know if MR will reach the final four but I firmly believe his NCAA tournament record can be equal to or better than 7-5 over the same time frame. That gives him 4 more years to win 7 games
 

irradiated_ram

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I personally am not saying "I want it right now, and don't want to wait". And this frustration isn't just from this last weekend's showing. VCU is 8-15 in early season tournaments over the last 9 years. For many of us, this frustration has been building from year to year as the results never seem to change. It's turning into an annual early season beat down just so everyone can brag about VCU's OOC strength of schedule when we are hoping and praying for an at-large bid in March. This frustration isn't about the current coaching staff or current team. It's about circling these tournaments on the calendar for the last 9 years, only to be super disappointed in the results the Monday after. When does that change?

And, for the record, how has the VCU program improved since 2011? Yes, there has been a ton of success, but has there really been improvement? Has this program elevated itself to the next level? Has this program made it to the second weekend of the NCAA Tournament? If you go back to 2011-12 and look at each year since, this program has performed at basically the same level since.
Improvement is improvement regardless if it meets your subjective criterion of "next level".

Since 2011 VCU has:
  • moved to a better conference.
  • appeared in 5 or 7 conference tournament championship games since joining
  • won 1 conference championship game
  • won at least a share of the regular season championship twice
  • only once entered in the NCAAT at a lower seed than in 2011 in the 7 appearances since
  • only twice since 2011 had a win percentage less than that of the 10-11 season (0.70), those were frank's and rhoades first years.
Can you really say there hasn't been improvement?
 

Wolfpack Ram

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Improvement is improvement regardless if it meets your subjective criterion of "next level".

Since 2011 VCU has:
  • moved to a better conference.
  • appeared in 5 or 7 conference tournament championship games since joining
  • won 1 conference championship game
  • won at least a share of the regular season championship twice
  • only once entered in the NCAAT at a lower seed than in 2011 in the 7 appearances since
  • only twice since 2011 had a win percentage less than that of the 10-11 season (0.70), those were frank's and rhoades first years.
Can you really say there hasn't been improvement?
Show me the trajectory then. I would argue that VCU has maintained it's level of success since 2011 more than it has shown improvement.

And, let's really look at the numbers since 2011:

  • NCAA Tournament wins since 2011: 3 (2012, 2013, 2016) Where is the improvement?
  • NCAA Tournament seeds since 2011: 12, 5, 5 ,7, 10, 10, 8 Where is the improvement?
  • VCU was ranked #10 in the country when they played Florida State in Puerto Rico November 21, 2013 and later fell out of the rankings in early December. This year is the first time since December 2014, after a loss to fodu, that VCU has been ranked nationally. Where is the improvement?
 

GuardTheArc

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Actually Wichita State went 25-8 last year and 14-4 (tied for 2nd) in their first year in the AAC. They have also been to the NCAA Tournament every year for the last 7 years. They are 6-1 this year, but have games coming up against @Oklahoma State and home against Oklahoma and VCU. They very well may end up being VCU's toughest OOC game this year since it is at Wichita State.
Wichita St did not dance last yr. They were 25-8 in the American the year before last.

This decade, VCU’s overall performance as a non-P6 has been better than or on par with every non-P6 except Gonzaga.........including Temple, Houston, San Diego St, St Mary’s, BYU, Cincy, UConn, Wichita St, Memphis, etc.

Xavier, Butler, and Creighton are P6 schools (i.e. significant recruiting advantage) and have been for a while now.

There is very little difference (NET, RPI, NCAA bids) between the American and the A-10 (top two non-P6 conferences).
 
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PhantomRam

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Lets go position by position since 2011 and see if we can uncover anything:
Head Coach - Shaka Smart - Frank and Mike are close to, but not quite up to the Shaka Smart level. It's arguable.
Point Guard - Joey - I love Joey, but I think we've had PGs as good or better than him for stretches.
2 Guard - Nixon - Nobody can out-cook him, but we've had equal to and better than 2 guards since.
Small Forward - Bradford - he was special, but again, I think we've had a good run of wings.
Power Forward - Skeen - and here's the difference maker. We've had great guys, but we just haven't had anyone like Skeen since 2011.
The Fifth Starter - it was a revolving door of players, so I won't cover it.

It's really hard to get a skilled, mult-threat, big man to come to a VCU type of school. Personally I don't think we make deep runs in March until we can recruit at a higher level on the front line. If I'm wrong, and I am a lot of the time, this would be the year. We have a team loaded with quality guards and senior leadership. The key is to hang together. A team of 5 superstars isn't going very far if they can't play together. Fans ripping them to shreads probably isn't going to have an positive effect. It's more fun disecting a game after a win, but seems like rubbing salt on a wound after a loss...or two.
Bingo. Skeen was the difference maker and he could hit free throws.
As you said, really hard to get a multi-threat big man.
Without Skeen, we would probably still be complaining about 1st weekend exits.
 

PhantomRam

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I understand what you're saying. I'd love to be in a better conference, even though the A10 looks to be better this year and hopefully improving more the next few years (with some programs having some stable coaches).
Okay, not really germane to this thread, but who thinks Grant will make another play for a P5/6 job?
Maybe with Dayton being his alma mater he will stay, but I think he will make one more play.
 
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Personally, I have mixed feelings about this weekend. I don't believe in moral victories. Even now, I'm still pretty disappointed at coming away from another one of these tournaments with nothing to really show for. Yes, it was encouraging to see us be competitive against two solid squads from P5 schools but at the end of the day we went 0-2. It also reaffirmed this narrative about VCU that we can compete against P5 schools but can't win those games. Come March these will not be bad losses and I think we still have a chance at having a special season but missing out on those two opportunities is disappointing especially with the team we have. Learn from these games, get better, and move on.
 
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Mistachill

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Okay, not really germane to this thread, but who thinks Grant will make another play for a P5/6 job?
Maybe with Dayton being his alma mater he will stay, but I think he will make one more play.
I doubt it. It may be different if he won big at one point and the program then took a bad turn. But Grant entire tenure at Alabama was very so-so. Combine that with him not being a self-promoter, rah-rah personality, I don't think he would have many attractive offers nor would he pursue other gigs. Not unless he really wants to return to the state of Florida.
 

Mistachill

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Bingo. Skeen was the difference maker and he could hit free throws.
As you said, really hard to get a multi-threat big man.
Without Skeen, we would probably still be complaining about 1st weekend exits.
With Skeen people are still complaining about 1st weekend exits.
 

irradiated_ram

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Show me the trajectory then. I would argue that VCU has maintained it's level of success since 2011 more than it has shown improvement.

And, let's really look at the numbers since 2011:

  • NCAA Tournament wins since 2011: 3 (2012, 2013, 2016) Where is the improvement?
  • NCAA Tournament seeds since 2011: 12, 5, 5 ,7, 10, 10, 8 Where is the improvement?
  • VCU was ranked #10 in the country when they played Florida State in Puerto Rico November 21, 2013 and later fell out of the rankings in early December. This year is the first time since December 2014, after a loss to fodu, that VCU has been ranked nationally. Where is the improvement?
Improvements are slow. Yes, a majority of the visible improvements following the Final Four run were in the form of program improvements that didn't immediately impact the win/loss column. But there have been improvements. The following trend shows season total FG% and Opp FG% (including most recent data for this season). Opp FG% is trending down, while our FG% is trending up. Although the trends may seem weak, keep in mind we joined a new conference, had 2 head coaching changes, and lost at least one recruiting class.

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Personally, I have mixed feelings about this weekend. I don't believe in moral victories. Even now, I'm still pretty disappointed at coming away from another one of these tournaments with nothing to really show for. Yes, it was encouraging to see us be competitive against two solid squads from P5 schools but at the end of the day we went 0-2. It also reaffirmed this narrative about VCU that we can compete against P5 schools but can't win those games. Come March these will not be bad losses and I think we still have a chance at having a special season but missing out on those two opportunities is disappointing especially with the team we have. Learn from these games, get better, and move on.
Its disappointing only if you Expected to win. I didnt think we would but it went better than expected so im good with it.
The season is going pretty much as i expected. I think a little too much was expected and the top 25 certainly fed that. Hopefully now we can get to work on the rough spots and set ourselves up for another run at the conference.
 
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