CLIMBING BACK UP THE LADDER :VCU Then and Now

[SPI-DA1]

As most of the die hard VCU Basketball fans are aware of VCU has been ranked as high as no 11 in the AP polls. After we lost JD Barnett we went through a period of decline and mediocrity. Just wondering if you all feel that VCU basketball is more recognized now in terms of respect than when we were looked at as a power back in the late 70's and early 80's before the BCS sytem....we were once a forgotten school but we are slowly gaining ground....Just wondering about any thoughts on this....

 

[BigE]

of course we are better known now...actually everybody who knows college BB knows us.
ESPN, MASN, and the other cable outlets have made college BB available to all corners of the country.
The fact that now they just use our initials speaks volumes.
Being more widely known is however different from having a more powerful BB program

 

[SPI-DA1]

of course we are better known now...actually everybody who knows college BB knows us.
ESPN, MASN, and the other cable outlets have made college BB available to all corners of the country.
The fact that now they just use our initials speaks volumes.
Being more widely known is however different from having a more powerful BB program

I would agree that the media has helped.....I also think that the program was stronger then than now ...However I think we are moving in the right direction...In my opinion if we are to be recognized as a basketball power like we once were we would need to get past the first round on a consistant basis....at least in to the round of 16 once or twice....

 

[bighorn]

The victory over Duke is the primary difference between VCU-Then, and VCU-Now.

VCU's climb to No. 11 during the Barnett Era is highly misleading; the Rams were most efficient in those days at puttering along in slow lane, without spinning out. VCU was out-pointing light- and middleweights - not heavyweights - en route to that lofty perch in the rankings.

Also, consider VCU's four NCAA victories under Barnett were over Long Island, LaSalle, Northeastern and Marshall - not exactly national headline grabbers. The NCAA had a 48-team field at that time. The first four seeds received byes the opening round, so you didn't have these ludicrous 1-vs.-16, 2-vs.-15, like now.

Three other reasons why the program is in sounder footing in the 21st century:

Home attendance: Some of the oldtimers, with selected memory, forget that home attendance was generally poor, with just a few exceptions toward the end of J.D's. tenure. There were many 2-to-3,000 crowds at the Coliseum that didn't come close to filling the lower deck.

The recent sellouts (with actual competition for tickets), coupled with mushrooming spirit, provide a far more powerful recruitng base.

Academics: Nowadays, VCU recruits basketball players similar in GPA/SAT qualifications to those being sought by U.Va., Tech, etc. Much of the early-times success was based on recruiting athletes who would not be considered by more established schools.

TV: Used to be, only royalty came into your living rooms. Now, so many cable options have enabled the less-endowed schools to receiver a larger share of the package.

Bottom line:

The dethroning of Duke was the turning point - that's the game that spun heads, opened eyes, and won the attention of students/area citizens who previous had only marginal interest.

It has been said that the victory over the blue-blooded Blue Devils - representing the beheading of despised monarch - meant more to generating interest in VCU hoops than all the victories, put together, that the Rams had accumulated in so many previous decades.

 

[SPI-DA1]

The victory over Duke is the primary difference between VCU-Then, and VCU-Now.

VCU's climb to No. 11 during the Barnett Era is highly misleading; the Rams were most efficient in those days at puttering along in slow lane, without spinning out. VCU was out-pointing light- and middleweights - not heavyweights - en route to that lofty perch in the rankings.

Also, consider VCU's four NCAA victories under Barnett were over Long Island, LaSalle, Northeastern and Marshall - not exactly national headline grabbers. The NCAA had a 48-team field at that time. The first four seeds received byes the opening round, so you didn't have these ludicrous 1-vs.-16, 2-vs.-15, like now.

Three other reasons why the program is in sounder footing in the 21st century:

Home attendance: Some of the oldtimers, with selected memory, forget that home attendance was generally poor, with just a few exceptions toward the end of J.D's. tenure. There were many 2-to-3,000 crowds at the Coliseum that didn't come close to filling the lower deck.

The recent sellouts (with actual competition for tickets), coupled with mushrooming spirit, provide a far more powerful recruitng base.

Academics: Nowadays, VCU recruits basketball players similar in GPA/SAT qualifications to those being sought by U.Va., Tech, etc. Much of the early-times success was based on recruiting athletes who would not be considered by more established schools.

TV: Used to be, only royalty came into your living rooms. Now, so many cable options have enabled the less-endowed schools to receiver a larger share of the package.

Bottom line:

The dethroning of Duke was the turning point - that's the game that spun heads, opened eyes, and won the attention of students/area citizens who previous had only marginal interest.

It has been said that the victory over the blue-blooded Blue Devils - representing the beheading of despised monarch - meant more to generating interest in VCU hoops than all the victories, put together, that the Rams had accumulated in so many previous decades.

Not to be confrontational but the schools that vcu played against at the time were good teams. (see metro)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Conference .... The Sunbelt was not as impressive but still a good conference at the time...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Belt_Conference ......You can not discount the fact that they were ranked 11th because it is still based on all of the teams in the country including the North Caorlinas and Dukes that were out then and Virginia who was a powerhouse back then( believe it or not) They played quality competition year round....I dont know if you remember the defunct TDIT --Times Dispatch Invitational Tournament were they would play Richmond,VT, Virginia, ODU...When VCU beat NU ....NU was a very good team at the time....Now logically to me it would be harder to get into a field of 48 vs. now what is it 64 plus 1.....What JD said in his interview made a lot of sense as to why VCU was good...He got a lot of the inner city kids....http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1994 ... ml.....and back then most of the good ballers were comming out of the inner city......also VCU was smaller and the Colisem was not on campus so I think they did good to get a crowd of 2 to 3,000 with a school population of about 15,000 for a mostly commuter school....I understand that Maynor is the all-time leading scorer when he passed Kendrick Warren another inner city kid but to say that they were not get high caliber players because they did not go to UVA ...I dont know...How long Since The pre-JD Barnet departure era has it been since VCU had a player drafted...THAt could kind of tell you something right there...given the fact that VCU had less media exposure is a testament to how good they had to have been to be able to be ranked not win a confernce title and still get bids......Just something to think about....For some of you who are to young to remember VCU was in fact a known basketball intity they fell to the way-side just like what happend to once powerhouse UVA( circa Ralph Sampson Era). http://www.basketball-reference.com/fri ... ollege=vcu

 

[Natty]

Nice post bighorn.

I guess it's up for debate which era had the better teams...but I think as far as being nationally recognized it's not even close. Maybe among your die hards college hoops fans there was as much respect back then...but the fact that within a few months we've seen Leonardo DiCaprio wearing a VCU hat and Lil Wayne name dropping Eric Maynor and Larry Sanders,... let's you know just how much we've progressed as far as "brand recognition". Definitely have to like where we are right now in Ram Nation...

 

[ram4life]

I wonder what the VCU basketball program would be like today had the J.D. years been followed by 15+ years that looked like the Capel and Grant years rather than the 15+ years of mediocracy (my opinion) that we had?

 

[RamBo]

All good posts, and I agree with almost all of it. I like where we are now, and i think due to the media availability, people are going to continue to get a strong dose of VCU. We need to continue to win, however, to make sure of that. I agree with you Horn, about the caliber of our earlier NCAA wins, but that is also somewhat a result of our being seeded nicely, with the success we achieved back then. We did not have to constantly play the Dukes or the UCLAs in the first round. But you are correct in what you are saying.

However, i do not agree about the over-all competition. Sure- we weren't facing monsters day-in and day-out. But we were in a power-packed mid-major conference that was difficult- top to bottom. And for the record, IMO- no way was the Metro a better league than the Sunbelt of that era. I remember at one point in 85' when you had: VCU # 11, UAB #13 ( Gene Bartow), Western Kentucky # 17 (Clem Haskins), and you had Soth Flo (Barnes I think?), South Al, UNCC (Mullins), and ODU (Paul Webb) right there, knocking on the door of Top-20, and all receiving votes at one point or another. There was no Top-25 back then.

And you were stacked with players like Lamb & Duncan from VCU, Terry Catledge from USA, Kenny Gattison and others from ODU, Jeff Hodges & Junie Lewis also from South Al, Tellis Frank and a fantastic crew from Western KY, an incredible team (no names are coming into my head) with UAB, etc.

Although you had the obvious monster in Louisville, and Southern Miss and Tulane were pretty good at the time, no way would I stack the Metro up to the old Sunbelt from 79' - 85.' Again, JMO.

Still, all of that said, I like where we are now. but we HAVE GOT to keep it rolling, and continue to grow it. The next step is to continue to win. That's always the central ingredient. And ou capitalize by getting a Top-25 here and there, a few more NCAAs, and then a Sweet 16 or 2. And then you have it- the recruits will continue to come in, as will the better coaching candidates, and you have the system you are looking for that will allow you to remain a mini-power. Or maybe even better. And that is what we lost after the 85' season, and man- it seemingly took half a life-time to gain it back. Let's look ahead now. I can't wait!!

 

[RamBo]

PS... One other thought on this.... It is not quite as much of a coup for a mid-major power to get a big-time player, these days. There are so many more kids available- because of those same media outlets that we've been discussing, but also due to the advancements in college, and mid-major hoops, and because of the way these kids are groomed, and are coming out now. I mean, geez.... look at BA Walker. He cam from no-where, but man was he ready when h got to VCU. He was completely prepared. Now, it sure did help thathe could just flat-out play. But he had been groomed his whole life for major D-1 ball, and he was just ready.

Not to say this wasn't happening some back in the 70's and 80s, but certainly with less frequency. You takea guy like Dom Jones (I know Notre Dame was recruiting him hard), BA Walker, or Eric Maynor. We can get them, and guess what? They can play with anyone in the country. Obviously, the big men are a whole lot harder to come by than great guards. But look at the Landlord. Again.... it can be done- especially if you have good sources, and utilize what is out there. When you have a guy like Mac McCarthy running the ship... forget it. Or Mike Polio. But when you have an organizer, and a bull-dog like Grant, or hopefully Coach Smart... it can be done. Now we've got to go out and do it. A lot of the pieces are in place.

 

[VRam]

The first round victories in the JD years were pretty routine, except for Northeastern. In addition, there were some heartbreaking second round losses to teams that went on to make noise in the Tournament - an OT loss to Dale Ellis' Tennessee team in '81, where the Rams led most of the game and got a shaky call against them when Danny Kottak was pushed out of bounds in the closing seconds. Tennessee went on to the Elite 8 or Final 4. The 83 loss to Georgia at the buzzer that was really offensive goaltending - I believe Georgia coach Hugh Durham's post-game response on TV after seeing the replay was, "uh, uh, uh, it was going in anyway." Georgia also went deep in the tournament. The four point loss to Alabama. The Rams also lost their first ever NCAA appearance to Iowa, who went on to the Final Four (coached by Lute Olsen and led by NBA player Ronnie Lester). We went head to head with the heavyweights and didn't back down at all.

 

[RamBo]

Yeah- We definitely did not back down from anyone. That's for sure, and we can always be proud of that- especially since we were still in our infancy, as a program. We have a shot to really make some noise these next 10 years- because now we have a lot of history behind us, and some serious name recognition. We really need to capitalize on it. We could be the next Gonzaga, Cincinnati, or one of those types. It would be nice to routinely be a part of the NCAA, and make a few Sweet-16 and maybe even an elite-8 appearance. And the Top-25 has got to include us- sooner or later. Let's hope Coach Smart gets us cranked up.

 

[SPI-DA1]

These are all good post....I agree as long as we dont go through another period of decline we are poised to gain even moored respect. The CAA has made some great strides in the past 20 years. I think the league in general has done a good job of building the league brand....after all compared to the BCS conferences we are still fairly new ...I believe that with the class that we have coming in we are poised to possibly win another championship. As I mentioned in another post ....consistancy is what is going to make the difference...(No offense to GMU) but we dont want to make a splash and then dissapear...we need to make noise every year and we will be taken seriously....The name is definetly out there we just need to do something to put and exclamation point on our reputation.

 

[Natty]

I mean, geez.... look at BA Walker. He cam from no-where, but man was he ready when h got to VCU.

BA had so much poise as a freshman...seemed to hit every big shot.

 

[SPI-DA1]

TJ Gwynn is going to do some major work this year for us .....He will be the dark horse ...He is not scared either ...He did not back down to UCLA...I predict that he will emerge as a leader this year

 

[VCU MJ]

.....
However, i do not agree about the over-all competition. Sure- we weren't facing monsters day-in and day-out. But we were in a power-packed mid-major conference that was difficult- top to bottom. And for the record, IMO- no way was the Metro a better league than the Sunbelt of that era. I remember at one point in 85' when you had: VCU # 11, UAB #13 ( Gene Bartow), Western Kentucky # 17 (Clem Haskins), and you had Soth Flo (Barnes I think?), South Al, UNCC (Mullins), and ODU (Paul Webb) right there, knocking on the door of Top-20, and all receiving votes at one point or another. There was no Top-25 back then.

And you were stacked with players like Lamb & Duncan from VCU, Terry Catledge from USA, Kenny Gattison and others from ODU, Jeff Hodges & Junie Lewis also from South Al, Tellis Frank and a fantastic crew from Western KY, an incredible team (no names are coming into my head) with UAB, etc.

Although you had the obvious monster in Louisville, and Southern Miss and Tulane were pretty good at the time, no way would I stack the Metro up to the old Sunbelt from 79' - 85.' Again, JMO......

Off topic, but isn't it about time for a true power-midmajor conference to fill the gap. There are so many really good mid level programs spread across conferences, it would just make so much sense for them to strengthen thier positions by being together, instead of hoping beyond hope for some kind of open door to a BCS.