What determines flagship?

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RamChris

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Saw this article on SI.com: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/w ... index.html

Within the article there is this:

Also, even with the flagship programs in Virginia struggling in recent years, the state is loaded with strong mid-major programs like Old Dominion, VCU and George Mason. Heck, even Hampton and leg-pumping coach Steve Merfeld had 15 seconds of fame since the last time Richmond resonated.



Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/w ... z0awtTyQTI
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My question: What determines "flagship" within, say, the state, or region?

How far the program has advanced in the NCAA's? If so, I think UVA has gone final four twice, right? Eons ago, but they've been there, done that. George Mason FF once. Never forget it. UR has gone Sweet Sixteen twice? Tech? Anything? Ever? Help me out here.
 
Overall basketball success in the NCAA tournament, NBA players, presence in the national sporting consciousness would all be good determinants of a flagship program. With all that in mind it's gotta be Virginia with their history of deep runs into the tournament (albeit some time ago), pro players (Who could forget Ralph Sampson), league affiliation (the ACC is the top basketball league perception-wise in the country and UVA has been a long-time member), facilities (the JPJ is hands-down the best basketball facility in Virginia and among the top in the country).

Ask the unbiased sports fan from outside the state and they'll say UVA is the flagship program...even if mids like Mason, VCU, and ODU have had some recent success (by our standards).

The difference between a school like VCU and a school like UVA is that they have the resources to compete for a national championship. We can't realistically say that's the case at VCU unless several major miracles take place. The same would be true of any other mid-major in the state.
 
districtballer said:
Overall basketball success in the NCAA tournament, NBA players, presence in the national sporting consciousness would all be good determinants of a flagship program. With all that in mind it's gotta be Virginia with their history of deep runs into the tournament (albeit some time ago), pro players (Who could forget Ralph Sampson), league affiliation (the ACC is the top basketball league perception-wise in the country and UVA has been a long-time member), facilities (the JPJ is hands-down the best basketball facility in Virginia and among the top in the country).

Ask the unbiased sports fan from outside the state and they'll say UVA is the flagship program...even if mids like Mason, VCU, and ODU have had some recent success (by our standards).

The difference between a school like VCU and a school like UVA is that they have the resources to compete for a national championship. We can't realistically say that's the case at VCU unless several major miracles take place. The same would be true of any other mid-major in the state.
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QFT
 
So it's not what you've done, it's the resources at your disposal, and the league you're in? How many you send to the NBA? So you would put Tech above UR and Mason?
 
RamChris said:
So it's not what you've done, it's the resources at your disposal, and the league you're in? How many you send to the NBA? So you would put Tech above UR and Mason?
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It is what you have done, just not necessarily what you have done lately. Based on the entire history of all of the VA programs then UVA is probably the best. Are they the best of the past decade? Nope, not even close.
 
districtballer said:
The difference between a school like VCU and a school like UVA is that they have the resources to compete for a national championship. We can't realistically say that's the case at VCU unless several major miracles take place. The same would be true of any other mid-major in the state.
Click to expand...

That makes what we are doing all the more impressive. We are overachieving and they are underachieving. They have the conference affiliation, the donors, the 4 star recruits, the facilities, and they are lucky to get a trip to the CBI. We have the two star players that turn into NBA draft picks, recruit guys who are willing to work and make themselves better over 4 years, die hard fans who are always enthusiastic and dedicated, and trips to the NCAA tourney. They have to pay 2 million to fire their coach and we have another school come and pay us to take our coach away. There is no shame in that. None at all.
 
I do believe I put 'overall basketball success in the NCAA tournament' as the first and hence most significant qualifier. In which case UVA still holds the torch in that regard. UVA in it's down cycle (and these are DARK years as far as UVA's basketball history is concerned) still won an NCAA game just as recently as VCU has (2007). They have 22 NCAA wins (VCU has 5), in 16 appearances (VCU has 9), 7 Sweet Sixteens (VCU-0), 4 Elite Eights (VCU-0), 2 Final Fours (VCU-0).

Virginia Tech? How quickly we forget...in the same year we beat Duke, so did Tech...AT Cameron Indoor. They also beat #1 North Carolina that year at home and then again when they were #4 at Chapel Hill. Just this past season, they beat #1 ranked Wake Forest to knock off the last unbeaten in 2008-2009. Any of those wins (in just the last 3 years) would easily be the best win in VCU history. They also won two NIT tournaments as well. Granted they've been to the NCAA's less than VCU and ODU and not with the same frequency. It's easy to discount teams, but it's us clamoring to play Tech and UVA, not the other way around. There's a reason for that. But to answer your question, I would put Richmond ahead of Tech but not Mason. Mason will have to have more sustained success for them to jump Tech.

There is no shame in where we are...nobody in the state does more with less. We're just not the flagship in the state of Virginia. That should be obvious. A good 3-year run doesn't get you that.

Either way, UVA is far and away the state's flagship and when Tony Bennett turns things around, they will be a national contender. That's just the reality of the basketball landscape.
 
In the context of that article, quite simply conference affiliation.

On CAAZone, it is defined by the drunk in front of the computer screen.
 
districtballer said:
Virginia Tech? How quickly we forget...in the same year we beat Duke, so did Tech...AT Cameron Indoor. They also beat #1 North Carolina that year at home and then again when they were #4 at Chapel Hill. Just this past season, they beat #1 ranked Wake Forest to knock off the last unbeaten in 2008-2009. Any of those wins (in just the last 3 years) would easily be the best win in VCU history.

Either way, UVA is far and away the state's flagship and when Tony Bennett turns things around, they will be a national contender. That's just the reality of the basketball landscape.
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Well, I discount the regular season Duke and UNC wins, laudable as they are, somewhat, only because they get about 2 shots a year at nationally ranked teams, home and away. Granted, doing it at Cameron is a daunting task, but I think if we were in a conference with them we would have figured out a way to do it as well. We got up for Louisville games when we were in the Metro.

I have no problem granting flagship status to UVA, there can be no argument there. As Finance has said also, nobody has done more with less than VCU. And I agree Mason is a one trick pony so far, but it was quite the trick, and I would put Tech ahead of them as well. I would give our program the most momentum at the moment. And I agree with your assessment of Tony Bennett. I think UVA will be coming back with him at the helm. I would also put UR ahead of us because of their past post-season success. I give greater weight to post season accomplishments, because in the post season, Duke doesn't get to lure you into Cameron to do their damage (or VCU into the Stu, for that matter), neutral court, put up or shut up. It's a beautiful thing!
 
There is also a lot of that "old school thinking" mixing in that often does not line up with reality. If you were to ask the average joe on the street {or Times Dispatch sports writer} who had the best team "on average" over the last 5 years in the state of VA most would say UVA or RPI. UVA & RPI will try to milk this slant for all its worth, even if it means not scheduling those trying to reach their elite status. Its been this way for a while. I can still remember how stunned a UVA grad was to my reaction to his comment about how much better his UVA point guard was than Edmond Sherod.

To quote a trite phrase "just win". Didn't Kentucky ignore Louisville for years until they lost to them in the Elite 8?

If VCU wins a game or 2 in the NCAAs, flagship status is attainable. Perception will slowly cede to reality if enough evidence is available.
 
vcubob said:
To quote a trite phrase "just win". Didn't Kentucky ignore Louisville for years until they lost to them in the Elite 8?

If VCU wins a game or 2 in the NCAAs, flagship status is attainable. Perception will slowly cede to reality if enough evidence is available.
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Just win, indeed, Bob. And we need to win 3-4 games, not 1 or 2, but I'll take all the wins we can. The next measuraable step is sweet sixteen to me, though. If Larry were to somehow stay with Skeen for one more year, I'm hyperventilating.
 
vcubob said:
There is also a lot of that "old school thinking" mixing in that often does not line up with reality. If you were to ask the average joe on the street {or Times Dispatch sports writer} who had the best team "on average" over the last 5 years in the state of VA most would say UVA or RPI. UVA & RPI will try to milk this slant for all its worth, even if it means not scheduling those trying to reach their elite status. Its been this way for a while. I can still remember how stunned a UVA grad was to my reaction to his comment about how much better his UVA point guard was than Edmond Sherod.

To quote a trite phrase "just win". Didn't Kentucky ignore Louisville for years until they lost to them in the Elite 8?

If VCU wins a game or 2 in the NCAAs, flagship status is attainable. Perception will slowly cede to reality if enough evidence is available.
Click to expand...


VPI?
 
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